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Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

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20 Mar 2017 20:12

None of you chaps have any right to express your thoughts on such a matter as Tim Hunt's sexist remarks because, unlike me, you have no idea of the real experience of being a woman and the daily horrors we women face at the hands of an institutionally sexist, gender-biased patriarchy.... :lol:
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 20:19

Robert21 wrote:
Zinoviev Letter wrote:[Just in case anyone is paying attention to this character, it's worth pointing out that Tim Hunt did not have his career destroyed. He caused controversy when he made a stupid and sexist speech, which even he admits was stupid and sexist. It led to a few months of embarrassment and his resignation from various positions, of a mostly honorary nature. He remains an eminent scientist and has as much work as a wealthy man in his mid 70s wants to carry out.

Hunt was a genuine victim of the authoritarian, politically correct thought police and a good example of how they have helped to create just another tyranny.


Indeed, there is no tyranny greater than a man suffering embarrassment when he publicly embarrasses himself by making a speech including sexist remarks in front of a crowd. The truest authoritarianism happens when people think less of you because of your own stupid behaviour. And of course no career is more truly ruined than that of the man who is still in highly paid and prestigious employment.

Just look at the language characters like this use to describe a wealthy man suffering embarrassment: "tyranny", "authoritarianism", "thought police". They have no such overblown sympathy for the situation of a young woman who, for instance, complains of sexist bullying at work.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 20:23

Robert21 wrote:
Zinoviev Letter wrote:[Just in case anyone is paying attention to this character, it's worth pointing out that Tim Hunt did not have his career destroyed. He caused controversy when he made a stupid and sexist speech, which even he admits was stupid and sexist. It led to a few months of embarrassment and his resignation from various positions, of a mostly honorary nature. He remains an eminent scientist and has as much work as a wealthy man in his mid 70s wants to carry out.

Hunt was a genuine victim of the authoritarian, politically correct thought police and a good example of how they have helped to create just another tyranny.

He did not make a 'stupid and sexist speech' He made a throw-away joke as part of a speech praising the achievements of women scientists in Korea, following his joke with "now seriously" to emphasise he was making a joke, something those out to destroy him chose to ignore. In response to the storm whipped up by the twitter mob the UCL immediately demanded that he resign or be sacked. He was then forced to resign from The European Research Council. In the end his wife, also a leading UK scientist, was forced to leave her post so the pair could move to Japan to continue their research. Despite the article below, The Guardian played a central role in pillorying Hunt, regarding the personal price he and his wife paid as being a price well worth paying to further its overtly feminist agenda, something the paper has remained unapologetic about.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/13/tim-hunt-hung-out-to-dry-interview-mary-collins


The whole thoughtpolice and the hatethought stuff is pretty weird, and sounds a bit unhinged. Like tin-foil unhinged. That being said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just as having free-will and making up your own mind is important (despite the apparent moral ignorance involved), there is this other important thing (especially for Sutton at BC, and for most us with a job) called professionalism which generally doesn't include the bad behavior and poor judgment Sky/BC have shown. If Sutton had it, he wouldn't be in this mess. Same goes for SBW and SDB and the other lot involved. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 20:43

GraftPunk wrote: there is this other important thing (especially for Sutton at BC, and for most us with a job) called professionalism which generally doesn't include the bad behavior and poor judgment Sky/BC have shown. If Sutton had it, he wouldn't be in this mess. Same goes for SBW and SDB and the other lot involved. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Good points, well made. However, if you want to end someone's career, accusing them of unprofessionalism might not do the job and is open to challenge. On the other hand, accuse them of 'sexism' and, in the current political climate, you know that the twitter mob and media will be all over it and it is 'game over' for them. :)
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 21:20

Robert21 wrote:
GraftPunk wrote: there is this other important thing (especially for Sutton at BC, and for most us with a job) called professionalism which generally doesn't include the bad behavior and poor judgment Sky/BC have shown. If Sutton had it, he wouldn't be in this mess. Same goes for SBW and SDB and the other lot involved. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Good points, well made. However, if you want to end someone's career, accusing them of unprofessionalism might not do the job and is open to challenge. On the other hand, accuse them of 'sexism' and, in the current political climate, you know that the twitter mob and media will be all over it and it is 'game over' for them. :)


Jess Varnish was vindicated so the accusation of 'sexism' was more than that.
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21 Mar 2017 00:16

I would like to remind the commenters in this thread that any off topic rants and personal attacks will be removed.

Please post to the topic at hand in an impersonal, friendly, and civil manner.

Cheers :)
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Re: Re:

21 Mar 2017 21:03

Robert21 wrote:
GraftPunk wrote: there is this other important thing (especially for Sutton at BC, and for most us with a job) called professionalism which generally doesn't include the bad behavior and poor judgment Sky/BC have shown. If Sutton had it, he wouldn't be in this mess. Same goes for SBW and SDB and the other lot involved. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Good points, well made. However, if you want to end someone's career, accusing them of unprofessionalism might not do the job and is open to challenge. On the other hand, accuse them of 'sexism' and, in the current political climate, you know that the twitter mob and media will be all over it and it is 'game over' for them. :)


So now every man who is stuck in the past where Men were Men and women were chained to the sink, should get a free pass and all the people who have moved on should shut up and let them be because some people think it is too much PC for their tastes. And after all, all these people are trying to do is end the careers of very good honourable people.

Sorry never going to happen.
Slavery was not wrong in 1780, it wasn't even illegal. The people of the time thought that negros (as they were called in those times, not my term) were sub humans who were there to be of use to the white superior humans who ran the world.

Luckily for the world as a whole this thought process has now been proved to be wrong. Although many people thousands died and a civil war was fought to get that to happen. And in some parts of the world slavery is still in existence.

Around 100 years ago women were thought of as too stupid and emotionally charged to be given the serious task of voting. Luckily this also has been proven to be a ridiculous and stupid thought process and those men who stuck by this thought and pushed this agenda were thankfully removed.

Hopefully, at some point the gender disparity in our society which pervades throughout our structures; and is now seen in situations where men with these thoughts either bully or use their power to marginalise or discriminate against women; will also fall by the wayside. However until that time people who truly believe deep down that they are superior to women. Like Tim Hunt, Shane Sutton and Donald Trump will continue to slip up in public or private and have to live with the shame that they rightly should feel.

Maybe their apologists are actually trying to justify their own inner thoughts which are more and more out of step with the society around them?

Over time all things change and evolve - maybe some people just need to catch up
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Re: Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

21 Mar 2017 23:32

gillan1969 wrote:However, "...dressed like an Australian's nightmare" gets a pass :)
Love that reference, even as a "Sheila".
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Yesterday 12:56

Wendy Houvenaghel.sticks the boot in: http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/39339718

  • She felt "oppressed" by both Sutton and Brailsford, describing the training environment as "horrid".

  • Sexism and "ageism" were prevalent at British Cycling.

  • She put up with the situation because "if you rocked the boat, you were out".

  • She was "discarded" by British Cycling after London 2012 despite six years of "constantly medalling" at major championships.
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Re: Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

Yesterday 13:30

"...it has accepted the draft report's findings and already put into a place a 39-point action plan to "systematically address the cultural and behavioural shortcomings".

The statement added: "Our new chair Jonathan Browning has apologised for instances where we have fallen short in our commitment to athlete welfare and has offered to meet with anyone who can help improve British Cycling.""
Nothing to see here - move on ... :rolleyes:
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Re:

Yesterday 14:16

TourOfSardinia wrote:Wendy Houvenaghel.sticks the boot in: http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/39339718

  • She felt "oppressed" by both Sutton and Brailsford, describing the training environment as "horrid".

  • Sexism and "ageism" were prevalent at British Cycling.

  • She put up with the situation because "if you rocked the boat, you were out".

  • She was "discarded" by British Cycling after London 2012 despite six years of "constantly medalling" at major championships.


Oh Wendy is just jealous because she was not a winner!! Wait a minute that's not right! :rolleyes:

People talked about Varnish blowing a trumpet because she was not good enough! Ooops there's that argument out the window!!!!
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Yesterday 16:37

So much smokescreen, so little time.
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Re: Re:

Today 11:36

Rob27172 wrote: So now every man who is stuck in the past where Men were Men and women were chained to the sink, should get a free pass and all the people who have moved on should shut up and let them be because some people think it is too much PC for their tastes... people who truly believe deep down that they are superior to women. Like Tim Hunt, Shane Sutton and Donald Trump will continue to slip up in public or private and have to live with the shame that they rightly should feel.

I had thought that 'off topic rants' were been deleted from this thread. ;)

Whatever, your reply highlights the issue I was trying to point out. Yes, people like Trump need to be held to account for their attitudes to women, but when people portray Tim Hunt, who was giving a speech praising the achievements of female scientists in Korea that included an ill-judged joke, as been no different to the likes of Trump, then it does seem that attempts to challenge one form of narrow-minded bigotry have simply led to the imposition of another form of narrow-minded bigotry, if not the seeds of a rather frightening Orwellian world where 'thoughtcrimes are death'.

Unfortunately, even though challenging discrimination and bringing about greater equality is obviously a laudable aim, it often seems that pursuing that goal is helping to create a situation where intolerance is held to be a virtue and anyone who suggests that the world is filled with shades of grey, not black and white simplicity, or who expresses discomfort at the lynch-mob mentality of the social media, or who says they believe 'innocent until proven guilty' is still an important principle, is vilified as been no better, or even a supporter of, oppression, misogyny, racism and so on. (Perhaps not surprisingly, the refusal to accept that shades of grey exist, with a growing polarisation and narrowing of attitudes seems to have become a lot worse since Trump was elected.)

As to Sutton, as the evidence accrues it does seem that he was no Tim Hunt.

That there was high-level mismanagement in BC also seems to be self evident. Given that Sutton's 'forthright' nature was apparent to everyone, it does seem amazing that no one ever thought to explain to him the realities of the 21st Century workplace, especially as everything was dependent on public funding. As Robert Millar recently wrote in the UK Magazine Rouleur, the 'Teflon suit' wearers also need to be held to account.

(By the way, the main reason women didn't have voting rights 100 years ago was the very same reason that, in the UK at least, the majority of men didn't have voting rights 100 years ago - historically voting was linked to property ownership, and it was only the carnage of WW1 that led the establishment to accept that granting the vote to 'the lower orders' was the right thing to do.)
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Re: Re:

Today 12:46

Robert21 wrote:
Rob27172 wrote: So now every man who is stuck in the past where Men were Men and women were chained to the sink, should get a free pass and all the people who have moved on should shut up and let them be because some people think it is too much PC for their tastes... people who truly believe deep down that they are superior to women. Like Tim Hunt, Shane Sutton and Donald Trump will continue to slip up in public or private and have to live with the shame that they rightly should feel.

I had thought that 'off topic rants' were been deleted from this thread. ;)

Whatever, your reply highlights the issue I was trying to point out. Yes, people like Trump need to be held to account for their attitudes to women, but when people portray Tim Hunt, who was giving a speech praising the achievements of female scientists in Korea that included an ill-judged joke, as been no different to the likes of Trump, then it does seem that attempts to challenge one form of narrow-minded bigotry have simply led to the imposition of another form of narrow-minded bigotry, if not the seeds of a rather frightening Orwellian world where 'thoughtcrimes are death'.

Unfortunately, even though challenging discrimination and bringing about greater equality is obviously a laudable aim, it often seems that pursuing that goal is helping to create a situation where intolerance is held to be a virtue and anyone who suggests that the world is filled with shades of grey, not black and white simplicity, or who expresses discomfort at the lynch-mob mentality of the social media, or who says they believe 'innocent until proven guilty' is still an important principle, is vilified as been no better, or even a supporter of, oppression, misogyny, racism and so on. (Perhaps not surprisingly, the refusal to accept that shades of grey exist, with a growing polarisation and narrowing of attitudes seems to have become a lot worse since Trump was elected.)

As to Sutton, as the evidence accrues it does seem that he was no Tim Hunt.

That there was high-level mismanagement in BC also seems to be self evident. Given that Sutton's 'forthright' nature was apparent to everyone, it does seem amazing that no one ever thought to explain to him the realities of the 21st Century workplace, especially as everything was dependent on public funding. As Robert Millar recently wrote in the UK Magazine Rouleur, the 'Teflon suit' wearers also need to be held to account.

(By the way, the main reason women didn't have voting rights 100 years ago was the very same reason that, in the UK at least, the majority of men didn't have voting rights 100 years ago - historically voting was linked to property ownership, and it was only the carnage of WW1 that led the establishment to accept that granting the vote to 'the lower orders' was the right thing to do.)


No offense intended but it's impossible to take your post seriously when you negate your own argument sentence by sentence. I can't work out if this is very long-winded parody or serious. Please say it's parody.

(And I'm sure nobody here will take your misleading, vastly simplified version of the history of suffrage seriously. There are a lot of very intelligent, edumacated people here you know).
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Re:

Today 12:55

TourOfSardinia wrote:Wendy Houvenaghel.sticks the boot in: http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/39339718

  • She felt "oppressed" by both Sutton and Brailsford, describing the training environment as "horrid".

  • Sexism and "ageism" were prevalent at British Cycling.

  • She put up with the situation because "if you rocked the boat, you were out".

  • She was "discarded" by British Cycling after London 2012 despite six years of "constantly medalling" at major championships.


Toxic isn't it. Glad to see Varnish, Cooke and Pooley vindicated further.

Or maybe it's just more crazy feminazis are on a rampage of totalitarian thoughtcrime punishment...[bangs head against wall]
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