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Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 12:16

Robert21 wrote:
budegan wrote:
Dani King business partner of SKY RIDER Luke Rowe and fiancee of his brother.

Yeah she's inclined to drop a phlegmy one in the broth :rolleyes:

Ah, I see. When it comes to allegations of 'sexism', the only people one should believe are those with an agenda to promote, an axe to grind, a bug up their *** or a chip on their shoulder! :)

Of course. What conflict of interest? :rolleyes:
User avatar 42x16ss
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 12:21

Robert21 wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Do you not think her connections are not worth pointing out when valuing her opinion?

They are no more and no less worth pointing out than the fact that people like Cooke and Varnish might well have an agenda to push, or a personal grudge to settle, with their opinions also being measured in the light of that possibility.

What axe does a retired World, Olympic, 2 x World Cup, Giro and 10 x national champion have to grind? Then there's Pooley backing her up word for word. I suppose you're blaming this entire episode on Pooley not taking credit for the Jiffy bag?
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 15:47

42x16ss wrote:
Robert21 wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Do you not think her connections are not worth pointing out when valuing her opinion?

They are no more and no less worth pointing out than the fact that people like Cooke and Varnish might well have an agenda to push, or a personal grudge to settle, with their opinions also being measured in the light of that possibility.

What axe does a retired World, Olympic, 2 x World Cup, Giro and 10 x national champion have to grind? Then there's Pooley backing her up word for word. I suppose you're blaming this entire episode on Pooley not taking credit for the Jiffy bag?

Bingo!
Darryl Webster wrote:
"Nothing seems to blind peeps as much as patriotism does it!"
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 16:51

42x16ss wrote:What axe does a retired World, Olympic, 2 x World Cup, Giro and 10 x national champion have to grind? Then there's Pooley backing her up word for word. I suppose you're blaming this entire episode on Pooley not taking credit for the Jiffy bag?
You seriously can't see it? For reals? (Being a fan of Cooke, agreeing with what Cooke says, that should not stop anyone from seeing that she has - like most of us of many things - an agenda, an axe to grind, a score to settle.)
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 17:10

fmk_RoI wrote:
42x16ss wrote:What axe does a retired World, Olympic, 2 x World Cup, Giro and 10 x national champion have to grind? Then there's Pooley backing her up word for word. I suppose you're blaming this entire episode on Pooley not taking credit for the Jiffy bag?
You seriously can't see it? For reals? (Being a fan of Cooke, agreeing with what Cooke says, that should not stop anyone from seeing that she has - like most of us of many things - an agenda, an axe to grind, a score to settle.)


Maybe she's just telling it like it was? Isn't that kinda normal? For someone to tell the truth?
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 07:46

thehog wrote:Maybe she's just telling it like it was? Isn't that kinda normal? For someone to tell the truth?

One could say much the same of Dani King, Becky James, Jo Rowsell, Katy Marchant and Rochelle Gilmore all of whom have come out in defence of Sutton, not to mention all the male riders who also said that whilst he was not exactly 'PC' and a hard taskmaster, he was a great coach dedicated to getting the best from all the riders under his charge, both male and female.
Robert21
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20 Mar 2017 09:44

Robert21 wrote:
thehog wrote:Maybe she's just telling it like it was? Isn't that kinda normal? For someone to tell the truth?

One could say much the same of Dani King, Becky James, Jo Rowsell, Katy Marchant and Rochelle Gilmore all of whom have come out in defence of Sutton, not to mention all the male riders who also said that whilst he was not exactly 'PC' and a hard taskmaster, he was a great coach dedicated to getting the best from all the riders under his charge, both male and female.

Is there some confusion here around the nature of bullying and sexism?

They don't exist as an all or nothing binary, it's not bully everyone or bully no-one. This isn't the way it happens in the real world, indeed it's not remotely uncommon for bullies to only bully a few people in a group and treat many others very well. This is the toxic dynamic they create. So the number of people who come out in support of Sutton is entirely irrelevant and the riders accusations of bullying stand on their own merits.

This sort of scenario plays out in domestic/relationship abuse cases all the time. The abuser behaves like a great person to everyone other than the person they are abusing and this makes it incredibly difficult for the abused to speak out as their claims will not seem credible. Indeed many people never believe them because the experience of the majority contrasts so starkly with the experience of the abused minority. The people who have been treated well, their experiences are real, they are not lying, there is no need to imagine any agendas, but their experience is irrelevant to that of the abused (I'm talking about emotional abuse here, physical abuse is a lot more obvious of course).
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 12:22

Robert21 wrote:
thehog wrote:Maybe she's just telling it like it was? Isn't that kinda normal? For someone to tell the truth?

One could say much the same of Dani King, Becky James, Jo Rowsell, Katy Marchant and Rochelle Gilmore all of whom have come out in defence of Sutton, not to mention all the male riders who also said that whilst he was not exactly 'PC' and a hard taskmaster, he was a great coach dedicated to getting the best from all the riders under his charge, both male and female.


What a stupid post, as with any bullying and abuse, it is selective. The perpetrator picks out the victims and seeks retribution until he breaks them.

This is like saying a child abuser abuses all children, no, select, groom and abuse.

Sutton is no different in his given context hence why is was forced out and the report stated he sought to "kill off"
Varnish.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 15:04

thehog wrote: as with any bullying and abuse, it is selective. The perpetrator picks out the victims and seeks retribution until he breaks them. This is like saying a child abuser abuses all children, no, select, groom and abuse.

Or, it could all be a matter of perception. For example, if you are particularly 'sensitive', have been brought up to believe that 'sexism' is rife everywhere you look, lack self confidence and so on, you might well react badly to an innocent comment that no one else would dwell on for a moment.

I think that your comment comparing Sutton to a child abuser, despite there being no independent evidence showing anything more than he was a 'hard task master' and failed to be sufficiently 'politically correct', well illustrates the mindset that is operating here.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 15:20

Robert21 wrote:
thehog wrote:Maybe she's just telling it like it was? Isn't that kinda normal? For someone to tell the truth?

One could say much the same of Dani King, Becky James, Jo Rowsell, Katy Marchant and Rochelle Gilmore all of whom have come out in defence of Sutton, not to mention all the male riders who also said that whilst he was not exactly 'PC' and a hard taskmaster, he was a great coach dedicated to getting the best from all the riders under his charge, both male and female.


Not exactly PC = Bullying and sexist.

The Bully doesn't pick on everybody.

Sutton no longer works for BC. I think that tells us everything.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 15:27

Robert21 wrote:
thehog wrote: as with any bullying and abuse, it is selective. The perpetrator picks out the victims and seeks retribution until he breaks them. This is like saying a child abuser abuses all children, no, select, groom and abuse.

Or, it could all be a matter of perception. For example, if you are particularly 'sensitive', have been brought up to believe that 'sexism' is rife everywhere you look, lack self confidence and so on, you might well react badly to an innocent comment that no one else would dwell on for a moment.

I think that your comment comparing Sutton to a child abuser, despite there being no independent evidence showing anything more than he was a 'hard task master' and failed to be sufficiently 'politically correct', well illustrates the mindset that is operating here.


Alas not, that was your correlation. I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

As it stands Sutton has been booted out never to work in cycling again and Varnish is a hero to many for standing up for what is right. She is also likely to sue British Cycling to recover her loses.

Those are the facts rather than the "alternative facts" world you live in :cool:
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 15:38

thehog wrote: I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

I am not looking to "give Sutton a pass". Rather, I am highlighting the 'guilt must be assumed' mob-rule mentality that seems to take over as soon as someone is accused of 'sexism' these days. (Just look at what happened to Nobel prize winner Tim Hunt for another example.)

As to the 'facts'. Bottom line is we don't know what the facts are, only having the opinions of various parties, all of whom seem to have an agenda to play, to base our own opinions on.
Robert21
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 15:44

Benotti69 wrote:Sutton no longer works for BC. I think that tells us everything.

That the crap is about to hit the fan at BC and all the 'Teflon suit'* wearers in senior management are determined that it will not be them who pays the price?

*Robert Millar's phrase in this month's Rouleur magazine.

Moving on to the British Cycling part of the affair, we learn that deep in the medal factory that is the Manchester velodrome, there's a dedicated pharmacy for those in its system. And that includes Team Sky riders. You'd have thought there would have at least been a thin blue line down the middle to separate each entity, but it seems not. The contents have been accessed and distributed by employees of BC that also happen to be members of Team Sky and no one seems to have thought there might be a bit of conflicting interest.

Also, despite an OCD attention to every little thing, there's no audit trail of what leaves its shelves, where it goes and who requested it in the first place. Could be a bit awkward if that came out. Oops, too late, and since this is funded by some government money, it's ended up In front of a Parliamentary Select Committee. Now is a timely moment to remember that, though the main players had been invited to appear before MPs and they weren't therefore under oath, they could well be at a later date if the answers they give aren't satisfactory.

...The two top guys at BC came across as underprepared bumpkins, not knowing who was doing what in their organisation. Shane Sutton got predictably angry when he ought to have remembered where he was and who he was talking to, and Dave Brailsford gave political answers to almost every question, seemingly forgetting that the people in front of him are all full-time political animals.

...Someone will end up under the proverbial wheels of the bus at the end of this enquiry, no doubt, probably holding a parcel of contents unknown. In this latent sexism/mismanagement affair, don't expect it to be anyone wearing a Teflon suit.
Robert21
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 16:18

Robert21 wrote:
thehog wrote: I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

I am not looking to "give Sutton a pass". Rather, I am highlighting the 'guilt must be assumed' mob-rule mentality that seems to take over as soon as someone is accused of 'sexism' these days. (Just look at what happened to Nobel prize winner Tim Hunt for another example.)

As to the 'facts'. Bottom line is we don't know what the facts are, only having the opinions of various parties, all of whom seem to have an agenda to play, to base our own opinions on.



Sorry but that attitude is what has kept the whole macho culture of bullying alive and well for so long.
In so many walks of life the idea is that it is the liberal / PC left sensitive types that complain and they should just suck it up and let the "real" workers get on with doing what is necessary.
Even Tim Hunt admitted his comments were sexist !!!
Just because he never meant to cause offence doesnt mean it was ok. It means he really isn't as smart or thoughtful as he should have been.

Sorry - but in no walk of life is it ok to be a bully. And the fact that as you point out in Robert Millars post, Sutton had a tendency to forget who he was talking to, further points to a bully who thought he was untouchable and would get away with whatever he wanted.

"Not being PC" is now bully speak for being a macho, misogynistic oik. Luckily for the world at large the vast majority of right minded people who have half a brain can see that this is unacceptable and people like that are being booted out of positions of power in civilised countries.

Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

Finally the reason that we know enough facts to call this out is that there was an enquiry and they did get to enough facts to take action. As has been pointed out, bully type people are clever enough to make sure that all of their actions take place in private and behind closed doors - so the facts can be argued as hearsay and opinion. Most people who are genuine and open and who are in positions of power do not hold all their meetings behind closed doors in one on one situations and are happy to be seen conducting their business.
Personally as a coach I would never have a one on one meeting with a female athlete out of respect for the athlete (who may feel intimidated or uncomfortable in that situation) and out of a sense of preservation for myself so anything I did say or do could not be misconstrued or taken badly and that there would be witnesses to help me prove that I did not do anything untoward or say anything I shouldn't.

Funnily enough this is one of the basic tenets of the British Cycling Coaching qualifications!!!
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 16:31

Robert21 wrote:
thehog wrote: I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

I am not looking to "give Sutton a pass". Rather, I am highlighting the 'guilt must be assumed' mob-rule mentality that seems to take over as soon as someone is accused of 'sexism' these days. (Just look at what happened to Nobel prize winner Tim Hunt for another example.)

As to the 'facts'. Bottom line is we don't know what the facts are, only having the opinions of various parties, all of whom seem to have an agenda to play, to base our own opinions on.


No, we have a the final report which was leaked, a report which was attempted to be surpressed by British Cycling & UK Sport. Sorry if that doesn't fit up to what you were hoping.

As for mob rule, I'll be sure to pass that on to those who match in solidarity for women recently.

Facts again don't you hate them? :cool:
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 16:39

Robert21 wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Sutton no longer works for BC. I think that tells us everything.

That the crap is about to hit the fan at BC and all the 'Teflon suit'* wearers in senior management are determined that it will not be them who pays the price?

*Robert Millar's phrase in this month's Rouleur magazine.

Moving on to the British Cycling part of the affair, we learn that deep in the medal factory that is the Manchester velodrome, there's a dedicated pharmacy for those in its system. And that includes Team Sky riders. You'd have thought there would have at least been a thin blue line down the middle to separate each entity, but it seems not. The contents have been accessed and distributed by employees of BC that also happen to be members of Team Sky and no one seems to have thought there might be a bit of conflicting interest.

Also, despite an OCD attention to every little thing, there's no audit trail of what leaves its shelves, where it goes and who requested it in the first place. Could be a bit awkward if that came out. Oops, too late, and since this is funded by some government money, it's ended up In front of a Parliamentary Select Committee. Now is a timely moment to remember that, though the main players had been invited to appear before MPs and they weren't therefore under oath, they could well be at a later date if the answers they give aren't satisfactory.

...The two top guys at BC came across as underprepared bumpkins, not knowing who was doing what in their organisation. Shane Sutton got predictably angry when he ought to have remembered where he was and who he was talking to, and Dave Brailsford gave political answers to almost every question, seemingly forgetting that the people in front of him are all full-time political animals.

...Someone will end up under the proverbial wheels of the bus at the end of this enquiry, no doubt, probably holding a parcel of contents unknown. In this latent sexism/mismanagement affair, don't expect it to be anyone wearing a Teflon suit.


Teflon suit wearers? One of them now is UCI President. Last BC head sit guy resigned early. Hardly Teflon. More like rat abandoning a sinking ship!

Millar plays omerta as much as anyone. Rouleur mag is all omerta!

That doesn't exonerate Sutton or his actions, just Millar giving his tuppence worth of a situation we are all aware of. Millar very good at cutting the BS. Pity he doesn't do a tell all in such a manner. Be well worth a read.

BC/Sky were a big team! Someone somewhere decided that is was time to separate them at least for visuals, whether the umbilical was ever truly cut of just shoved out of sight we may never find out.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 17:54

Rob27172 wrote:
Robert21 wrote:
thehog wrote: I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

I am not looking to "give Sutton a pass". Rather, I am highlighting the 'guilt must be assumed' mob-rule mentality that seems to take over as soon as someone is accused of 'sexism' these days. (Just look at what happened to Nobel prize winner Tim Hunt for another example.)

As to the 'facts'. Bottom line is we don't know what the facts are, only having the opinions of various parties, all of whom seem to have an agenda to play, to base our own opinions on.



Sorry but that attitude is what has kept the whole macho culture of bullying alive and well for so long.
In so many walks of life the idea is that it is the liberal / PC left sensitive types that complain and they should just suck it up and let the "real" workers get on with doing what is necessary.
Even Tim Hunt admitted his comments were sexist !!!
Just because he never meant to cause offence doesnt mean it was ok. It means he really isn't as smart or thoughtful as he should have been.

Sorry - but in no walk of life is it ok to be a bully. And the fact that as you point out in Robert Millars post, Sutton had a tendency to forget who he was talking to, further points to a bully who thought he was untouchable and would get away with whatever he wanted.

"Not being PC" is now bully speak for being a macho, misogynistic oik. Luckily for the world at large the vast majority of right minded people who have half a brain can see that this is unacceptable and people like that are being booted out of positions of power in civilised countries.

Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

Finally the reason that we know enough facts to call this out is that there was an enquiry and they did get to enough facts to take action. As has been pointed out, bully type people are clever enough to make sure that all of their actions take place in private and behind closed doors - so the facts can be argued as hearsay and opinion. Most people who are genuine and open and who are in positions of power do not hold all their meetings behind closed doors in one on one situations and are happy to be seen conducting their business.
Personally as a coach I would never have a one on one meeting with a female athlete out of respect for the athlete (who may feel intimidated or uncomfortable in that situation) and out of a sense of preservation for myself so anything I did say or do could not be misconstrued or taken badly and that there would be witnesses to help me prove that I did not do anything untoward or say anything I shouldn't.

Funnily enough this is one of the basic tenets of the British Cycling Coaching qualifications!!!


I suggest you quit this thread when you have to besmirch a country ( Australia ) with reckless and unsubstantiated gossip to support an argument - One of the poorest posts even seen on the Clinic.
yaco
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20 Mar 2017 17:57

Bullying and sexism have always been systemic in many professional ( team ) Olympic Sports - Possibly strong action may reduce the amount of bullying/sexism, but its naive to think it will ever be completely eradicated.

We must remember British Cycling through Simon Yates under the bus to divert attention from the Shane Sutton bullying allegations - So to change institutionalised behaviour is a big order.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 18:05

Rob27172 wrote: Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

You seem to forget that one of the rules of the politically correct thought police is to not resort to racism when attacking the evils of sexism. Another is to avoid labeling whole groups of people with gross, negative stereotypes.
Last edited by Robert21 on 20 Mar 2017 19:41, edited 1 time in total.
Robert21
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Re: Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

20 Mar 2017 18:11

However, "...dressed like an Australian's nightmare" gets a pass :)
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