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Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 18:12

Rob27172 wrote:"Not being PC" is now bully speak for being a macho, misogynistic oik. Luckily for the world at large the vast majority of right minded people...

'Right minded people'. What a loaded phrase! "Thoughtcrime does not entail death. Thoughtcrime is death!"

I would say that, these days, the abuse of language works pretty much in the reverse to what to you suggest, with terms such as 'sexist', which once meant discriminating against someone (male or female) because of their gender having come to mean 'a man (and only a man) doing pretty much anything that a female objects to in any way, including failing to be sufficiently 'PC'!

(Or were you suggesting that the 'bullies' are those who accuse people of being "macho, misogynistic oiks" on the basis that they are insufficiently 'PC', in which case I agree. :) )
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Re: Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

20 Mar 2017 18:17

Shane has a lot spare time on hands these days. There is only so many episodes of Neighbors he can watch before he hits the nternet forums :lol:
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 18:24

Robert21 wrote:
yaco wrote: Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

You seem to forget that one of the rules of the politically correct thought police is to not resort to racism when attacking the evils of sexism. Another is to avoid labeling whole groups of people with gross, negative stereotypes.


You have reached the depths when you cut and paste a quote from another poster under my name - And yet we have a thread about Skybots - The irony is delicious !
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Re: Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

20 Mar 2017 18:28

thehog wrote:Shane has a lot spare time on hands these days. There is only so many episodes of Neighbors he can watch before he hits the nternet forums :lol:


do you know where the upper floor on his bike shop is hog? I think I may just romeo and julet sernade the upper floor. i am thinking a mandolin?
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 18:29

yaco wrote:
Robert21 wrote:
yaco wrote: Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

You seem to forget that one of the rules of the politically correct thought police is to not resort to racism when attacking the evils of sexism. Another is to avoid labeling whole groups of people with gross, negative stereotypes.


You have reached the depths when you cut and paste a quote from another poster under my name - And yet we have a thread about Skybots - The irony is delicious !


far more likely he's fallen foul of trying to work out the bl**dy quote thing....we can all see the history...
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:00

gillan1969 wrote:far more likely he's fallen foul of trying to work out the bl**dy quote thing....we can all see the history...

Exactly! :redface:
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20 Mar 2017 19:05

Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:09

GraftPunk wrote:Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Why does anyone put air quotes around anything?
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:14

Rob27172 wrote:Even Tim Hunt admitted his comments were sexist !!! Just because he never meant to cause offence doesnt mean it was ok. It means he really isn't as smart or thoughtful as he should have been.

But did Hunt's throw-away joke at an obscure conference justify destroying his career? Or does the fact that this sort of thing commonly happens happens these days highlight the fact that the laudable desire to challenge discrimination had created just another tyranny?

In addition, there seem to be plenty of people around these days whose whole focus in life appears to be looking for things to be offended by, especially if this helps them to further their agendas. Even Trevor Philips, one-time chair of the UK's Equality and Human Rights Commission, recognises that pandering to such individuals has gone too far, not least because doing so has helped to fuel the 'populist' backlash which put Trump into power.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/19/trevor-phillips-i-dont-care-about-offending-people-has-political-correctness-gone-mad-channel-4
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:15

kingjr wrote:
GraftPunk wrote:Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Why does anyone put air quotes around anything?


To make them seem nonexistent, unimportant, or inapplicable? That's the part I'm curious about (plus shining a flashlight into how some poster's frame the world).
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:22

GraftPunk wrote:
kingjr wrote:
GraftPunk wrote:Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Why does anyone put air quotes around anything?


To make them seem nonexistent, unimportant, or inapplicable? That's the part I'm curious about (plus shining a flashlight into how some poster's frame the world).

I think inapplicable is what you're looking for, hasn't Robert already answered that, indirectly? I think you need only go back one page.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:24

Robert21 wrote:
Rob27172 wrote:"Not being PC" is now bully speak for being a macho, misogynistic oik. Luckily for the world at large the vast majority of right minded people...

'Right minded people'. What a loaded phrase! "Thoughtcrime does not entail death. Thoughtcrime is death!"

I would say that, these days, the abuse of language works pretty much in the reverse to what to you suggest, with terms such as 'sexist', which once meant discriminating against someone (male or female) because of their gender having come to mean 'a man (and only a man) doing pretty much anything that a female objects to in any way, including failing to be sufficiently 'PC'!


Yeah, real manly men can't even say sexist things to colleagues at work any more or bully young women who they are in a position of power over without the PC left wing thought police calling them sexist bullies.

Have you considered the possibility that you may be more comfortable on some forum where Men's Rights desperadoes foam at the mouth ranting about the evils of family court?
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:26

GraftPunk wrote:Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Because sexism does have a well-defined meaning. That is discriminating against someone on the basis of their gender. Problem is, the term is now used to mean a whole raft of other things that are not strictly speaking sexism, from failing to be a politically correct, doubleplusgood thinker to doing or saying anything that a female can, if she trues hard enough, find reason to dislike or object to!

If Sutton actively discriminated against female riders, rather than trying to get the best performance he could out of them then he is a sexist. However if, for example, he unthinkingly used the Aussi slang 'Shelias' to refer to women (as one of the charges against him alleges) than it does seem appropriate to put 'scare quotes' around any reference to this as being 'sexism'. (Although doubtless the thought police would press for the broadest possible interpretation of the term.)
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:31

kingjr wrote:
GraftPunk wrote:
kingjr wrote:
GraftPunk wrote:Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Why does anyone put air quotes around anything?


To make them seem nonexistent, unimportant, or inapplicable? That's the part I'm curious about (plus shining a flashlight into how some poster's frame the world).

I think inapplicable is what you're looking for, hasn't Robert already answered that, indirectly? I think you need only go back one page.


I'm just providing the shovel ;)
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:37

Zinoviev Letter wrote:Have you considered the possibility that you may be more comfortable on some forum where Men's Rights desperadoes foam at the mouth ranting about the evils of family court?

Not at all. That lot seem to be as bad to me as all the 'foaming at the mouth' feminists ranting on in the opinion section of the Guardian!

Perhaps you are advocating that I be made an 'unperson' for my thoughtcrimes? Unfortunately, such intolerance and the determination to silence anyone who holds a different opinion or who fails to be wholly 'orthodox' in what they say - rather than trying to engage with them - is pretty widespread these days.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:39

If Sutton actively discriminated against _____ riders, rather than trying to get the best performance he could out of them then he is a ___ist. However if, for example, he unthinkingly used the _____ slang '_______' to refer to _______ (as one of the charges against him alleges) than it does seem appropriate to put 'scare quotes' around any reference to this as being '____ism'. (Although doubtless the thought police would press for the broadest possible interpretation of the term.)


Madlibs anyone? Enlightening.

edited for proper html
Last edited by GraftPunk on 20 Mar 2017 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:40

Robert21 wrote:
Rob27172 wrote:Even Tim Hunt admitted his comments were sexist !!! Just because he never meant to cause offence doesnt mean it was ok. It means he really isn't as smart or thoughtful as he should have been.

But did Hunt's throw-away joke at an obscure conference justify destroying his career?


Just in case anyone is paying attention to this character, it's worth pointing out that Tim Hunt did not have his career destroyed. He caused controversy when he made a stupid and sexist speech, which even he admits was stupid and sexist. It led to a few months of embarrassment and his resignation from various positions, of a mostly honorary nature. He remains an eminent scientist and has as much work as a wealthy man in his mid 70s wants to carry out.

The interesting ongoing aspect of the incident is not any particular consequences suffered by Tim Hunt, but the way it continues to loom large as an injustice in the minds of the kind of halfwits who believe that men are the real victims of sexism.
Last edited by Zinoviev Letter on 20 Mar 2017 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:43

yaco wrote:
Robert21 wrote:
yaco wrote: Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

You seem to forget that one of the rules of the politically correct thought police is to not resort to racism when attacking the evils of sexism. Another is to avoid labeling whole groups of people with gross, negative stereotypes.


You have reached the depths when you cut and paste a quote from another poster under my name - And yet we have a thread about Skybots - The irony is delicious !


Sorry. Fixed!
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 19:47

Robert21 wrote:
Rob27172 wrote:Even Tim Hunt admitted his comments were sexist !!! Just because he never meant to cause offence doesnt mean it was ok. It means he really isn't as smart or thoughtful as he should have been.

But did Hunt's throw-away joke at an obscure conference justify destroying his career? Or does the fact that this sort of thing commonly happens happens these days highlight the fact that the laudable desire to challenge discrimination had created just another tyranny?

In addition, there seem to be plenty of people around these days whose whole focus in life appears to be looking for things to be offended by, especially if this helps them to further their agendas. Even Trevor Philips, one-time chair of the UK's Equality and Human Rights Commission, recognises that pandering to such individuals has gone too far, not least because doing so has helped to fuel the 'populist' backlash which put Trump into power.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/19/trevor-phillips-i-dont-care-about-offending-people-has-political-correctness-gone-mad-channel-4


Couldn't agree more with the bold. Life would be so damn dull if we never said anything the slightest bit risque, polemical, daring, etc. etc. in case some one might be offended. In such a world, Darwin would have been in chokey as the likes of Bishop Usher got all hot under the collar. Change rests with the unreasonable man, after all.

I'd much rather the world was full of free thinkers willing to challenge ideas and say the wrong thing so long as their intentions aren't malevolent, versus a world where we have the thought police, whose intentions appear to be to shut anyone up that doesn't agree with a narrow world view predicated on an assumption of victimhood. It's a dead bore and very dangerous to boot. Any one interested in this stuff should check out what's happening to Prof. Jordan Peterson in Canada. As for Tim Hunt - well, since most of the people who know his name probably know him for this rather than his achievements, I'd have thought his reputation has suffered, which seems absurd given what he actually said was pretty darn mild and clearly not intended to cause offence. Folks need to develop a bit thicker skin and focus on bigger issue rather than trivial tokenism. Why not get hot under the collar about things causing actual harm, like modern day slavery, FGM, harrassment in the workplace etc. etc.

Which is not to say that bullying is acceptable - there's a world of difference between an off the cuff, slightly off colour joke and systematic bullying and harrassment. A culture in which a number of people feel uncomfortable and excluded -whatever their gender - clearly needs at least investigating if the aim of an organisation, such as British Cycling, is to get the best out of people. The culture should be able to adapt to different needs: some people will need reassurance, some people will need a kick up the backside. Personally I can tolerate a lot of what others might call sexism if the intention to cause harm isn't there, and there is a demonstrable willingness to act when the behaviour is called out. That said, the reviews I've read don't exactly inspire confidence that there was a genuine willingness to change when you have the BC Board allegedly over-turning the findings of it's own independent compliance officer and covering up adverse findings.
Last edited by Electress on 20 Mar 2017 19:52, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 20:04

Zinoviev Letter wrote:[Just in case anyone is paying attention to this character, it's worth pointing out that Tim Hunt did not have his career destroyed. He caused controversy when he made a stupid and sexist speech, which even he admits was stupid and sexist. It led to a few months of embarrassment and his resignation from various positions, of a mostly honorary nature. He remains an eminent scientist and has as much work as a wealthy man in his mid 70s wants to carry out.

Hunt was a genuine victim of the authoritarian, politically correct thought police and a good example of how they have helped to create just another tyranny.

He did not make a 'stupid and sexist speech' He made a throw-away joke as part of a speech praising the achievements of women scientists in Korea, following his joke with "now seriously" to emphasise he was making a joke, something those out to destroy him chose to ignore. In response to the storm whipped up by the twitter mob the UCL immediately demanded that he resign or be sacked. He was then forced to resign from The European Research Council. In the end his wife, also a leading UK scientist, was forced to leave her post so the pair could move to Japan to continue their research. Despite the article below, The Guardian played a central role in pillorying Hunt, regarding the personal price he and his wife paid as being a price well worth paying to further its overtly feminist agenda, something the paper has remained unapologetic about.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/13/tim-hunt-hung-out-to-dry-interview-mary-collins
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