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Wiggins, Clinic respect?

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Re: Wiggins, Clinic respect?

19 Mar 2018 00:43

samhocking wrote:
thehog wrote:
samhocking wrote:Changing the topic there guys, what Lappartient has said has nothing to do with Cookson. The issue is Lappartient has confirmed he wishes to investigate Sky's ethics using CADF (Anti-Doping). He is in for an impossible ride. He will actually be investigating himself because it was the UCI that granted the TUE if the TUE is decided to be unethical.

Hi only way out legally, will be Wiggins team fabricated the whole asthma an allergy 'story'. The problem in doing so, is that trail goes all the way back to French Federation when they were issuing TUEs to Wigins for Corticosteroids too, as well as the Olympic Committee. Lappartient will essentially be investigating the ethics of French Federation, Olympic Committee and UCI in order to prove Wiggins asthma and allergy is fabricated.


Huh? The French Federation? Wigins? :confused:


Yes, that's how you got TUE before UCI and WADA. You got them from your National Federation, or for Olympics. from Olympic Comittee. Wiggins has several TUEs for asthma an allergy substances before WADA from French Cycling Federation when he raced on French teams. That's what I mean, French Federation (who issued him the TUEs in Cofidis & FdeJ) and Olympic Commitee (issued for Olympic TUEs) are essentially involved in Wiggins TUE, simply if you wanted to look at how believable Wiggins asthma and allergies history really is. The evidence trail goes back to FdeJ basically when he got his first TUEs for Asthma in 2002/3 before WADA & Zorzoli.


Pre-2009 any use of Salbutamol required a TUE. Only Sky prescribed him intra-muscular triamcinolone.

What does that tell you Sherlock? :cool:
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Re: Wiggins, Clinic respect?

19 Mar 2018 08:00

You're getting bogged down in 2011 minutia Hog. Widen that lense to see if TUE is justified medically. Sky didn't prescribe it, Simon Hargreaves did, sent the report to UCI and UCI authorised it under TUE.

May 2003 - Wiggins has allergy attack in Giro racing with FdeJ, quit next day after finishing outside time limit
June 2003 - FdeJ doctor advises Wiggins to be tested to get permission from French Federation to take Salbutomol (beta 2), Fumeterol (beta 2) & Budensonide (Corticosteroid)
Summer 2003 Wiggins visits Palfreeman for lung function testing and sends letter and results to UCI & French Federation
Spring 2004 - French Federation authorises TUE (their equivalent) to Wiggins for 2004 season to treat his asthma and allergies
Spring 2004 - Andrea Wooles performs further testing on Wiggins for Olympic Committee who signs off TUEs (their equivalent)for Wiggins to use in 2004 Olympics
2005 to 2008 is a repeat of lung and allergy testing each year to be authorised TUES by French Federation (now racing for Credit Agricole & Cofidis, so applied by those team doctors this time)
There's a statement from Wiggins saying the doctors in FdeJ & Cofidis kept changing, so tests were performed by Palfreeman for French Federation and Wooles for Olympic Committee and he was on maximal therapy from 2005-2008 consisting of Salbutomol, Fumeterol, Budensonide, 2x Claratyn/day, Nasal Sprays, Eye Drops.
2008 - Team High Road TUE shows increase in Corticosteroids upto 250 ng 1-2 times per day and attached letter (not leaked by Fancy Bears)
2009 - Team Garmin Salbutomol, Fumeterol obviously allowed upto maximal therapy without TUE. Seems to have stopped taking the Budensonide Corticosteroid or it's carried over, but we do know from Zorzolis 2011 TUE, Wiggins had been on maximial therapy for all over the counter products > 3 years, which confiorms Wiggins stating he was talking maximum over the counter alongside his Salbutomol, Fumeterol & Budensonide anyway.
2010 - Palfreeman resigns and Freeman replaces him
2010 - Looses Bayern Rundfahrt, Wiggins claims due to allergies and visits Freeman
2011 - Freeman sends Wiggins to see ENT Specialist Simon Hargreaves - (Bolton NHS) and has the whole RAST, Lung Function testing etc. Hargreaves confirms the rhinitus and maximial therapy he's been using the previous 3-4 years isn't working. Wiggins said in 2011, just before the Nationals was the first time he had returned home to UK to see Hargreaves, so that's when he was officially diagnosed with rhinitus symptoms on maximial therapy.
2011 - Hargreaves sends Freeman a full report (as Wiggins claims), Freeman sends that to UCI and UCI authorises Hargreaves request for Triamcinilone injection.

So, if anyone wanted to disprove Wiggins case, you have FdeJ doctors, Credit Agricole Doctors, Cofidis Doctors, BC Doctors, NHS Doctors, UCI Doctors & IOC Doctors all building what looks a legitimate TUE history that led upto the Triamcinolone TUE. I count at least 9 different doctors across various organisations applying and issuing TUEs to Wiggins for the same claimed medical need. The reality in Wiggins time was he could have simply got a fake ankle injury and injected in the bum safely under TUE. He didn't need to involve 9 different doctors over 8 years with fake allergies for oral corticosteroids under TUE so he could inject, his team doctors were doing that for other riders using fake injury anyway. We know that's how it worked back then from various rider testimonials. None uses asthma and allergies to get Corticosteroid TUEs.

If anyone should be investigated it's clearly Hargreaves. His report is what allows UCI to grant the Triamcinolone as he's tested Wiggins on what he claims is non-working maximal therapy in June 2011. Basically Hargreaves took the decision to move Wiggins from maximum oral corticosteroids he claims were no longer working in 2011 to Triamcinolone. Without the previous history for allergies going back to 2003 I would agree, it looks odd, but 1 million people out of the 12 million UK allergy sufferers were injected with Triamcinolone until NHS stopped advising it. Even today, the most sever cases are treated with injection.
samhocking
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19 Mar 2018 13:35

sam that's one impressive sleuthing on Wiggo allergy history - respect!
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19 Mar 2018 17:01

Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.
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Re:

19 Mar 2018 17:16

yaco wrote:Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.


Maybe not so loose. He does seem to spend an awful lot of time defencing BC and Sky
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Re:

19 Mar 2018 19:45

yaco wrote:Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.


Someone with connections to Sky/BC giving us facts. As opposed to spin or just plain lies. Where have you been for the last few years :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2018 19:53

ruamruam wrote:
yaco wrote:Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.


Maybe not so loose. He does seem to spend an awful lot of time defencing BC and Sky


he made a list of all the medical asthma-allergy related history of Wiggins career. kudos to him, he didnt throw accusations or guessed about the contents of jiffy bags or whatever.
he wrote a list. he spend an awful lot of time depending, others spend an awful lot of time accusing. that´s what The Clinic is made for I think.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2018 20:06

pastronef wrote:
ruamruam wrote:
yaco wrote:Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.


Maybe not so loose. He does seem to spend an awful lot of time defencing BC and Sky


he made a list of all the medical asthma-allergy related history of Wiggins career. kudos to him, he didnt throw accusations or guessed about the contents of jiffy bags or whatever.
he wrote a list. he spend an awful lot of time depending, others spend an awful lot of time accusing. that´s what The Clinic is made for I think.


Why don't you ask Sam for links for we can check the medical history he's posted

And of course for the full story we'd need the whole of Wiggo's medical file in the public domain

Including the really dodgy stuff Team Sky "lost" just before UKAD came calling
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Re: Wiggins, Clinic respect?

20 Mar 2018 02:05

Wiggins getting his injection on a private jet on the way to the Giro. If it was treatment in the normal pattern of his illness it would have featured plainly in Wiggins’s autobiography. Simple.
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Re:

20 Mar 2018 02:29

TourOfSardinia wrote:sam that's one impressive sleuthing on Wiggo allergy history - respect!


Yeah, thanks Sam, this is good stuff. I appreciate the time and effort it must have taken to gather all that. And as a sidelight, it reveals information that FB, for whatever reason, did not find or at least publish.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2018 02:58

Merckx index wrote:
TourOfSardinia wrote:sam that's one impressive sleuthing on Wiggo allergy history - respect!


Yeah, thanks Sam, this is good stuff. I appreciate the time and effort it must have taken to gather all that. And as a sidelight, it reveals information that FB, for whatever reason, did not find or at least publish.


It’s not that impressive as Sam lifted it straight from Wiggins own account as printed in CyclingNews from BWs interview with the Guardian. If Sam was being honest he would have linked to the article instead of his cut and paste job edited down to make it look like his own research :surprised:

During the interview, Wiggins explained that while he had suffered from an allergy to pollen for some time, it wasn’t until the 2003 Giro d’Italia, his first ever Grand Tour, that he first felt it had impacted his ability to race. Wiggins was forced to leave the race following stage 18 after missing the time cut.

“When I had a severe attack, the day after I was wiped out,” he said before going into the details of the attack. “[It is] uncontrollable sneezing, runny nose, watery eyes, the urge to rub my eyes constantly, and in doing that the eyes becoming bloodshot … extreme. My breathing became restricted, like breathing through a straw at times.”

After the incident, Wiggins went to see British Cycling Dr Roger Pelfreeman, who would remain his medical point of contact until the spring of 2010 when he left the organisation. Dr Richard Freeman would come on board to replace him, working at both British Cycling and Team Sky, which made its debut that season. Wiggins says that the decision to stick with Dr Palfreeman was one of continuity as he moved around teams. Under his advice, Wiggins went under a series of tests.

“The results… were sent to the UCI and he pushed hard with the French Federation – I was racing for a French team at that time – and the UCI. I’m not sure what it would have been called, but it was the equivalent of today’s TUE,” he explained. “Back then at a pro team it would be written in your health book, it would be for two inhalers, fluticasone and salbutamol – it was the red inhaler basically. It was all agreed, stamped off and sent to the French Federation.

“In 2004 I went through the same process again, but I needed authorisation to compete at the summer Olympics under IOC doping regulations. So I had to complete another series of lung function tests, at the Manchester velodrome conducted by Andrea Wooles, who was in charge of that.

“Again, I did the lung function tests, all was well, and I got authorisation from the IOC. From 2005 to 2008 those applications were renewed each January to cover me for the season.”

Wiggins received three TUEs during the 2008 season, one in June and two in December. All were for 12 months and included varying dosages for Salbutamol. The last of the three, issued on December 16, also included the corticosteroid Budesonide and the β2-agonist Formoterol, which are often used together to combat asthma. That would run until the end of 2009, but when Wiggins joined Team Sky in 2010, he didn’t apply for a TUE.

“It wasn’t suggested to me,” he explained. “Aside from complaining about the normal symptoms – 'I’m on Clarityn, can you give me some of that, have we got loads on the race when we go to the Giro or the Tour? Can we have the nasal spray that I’m on? Just checking the usual stuff, eye drops, red inhalers, blue salbutamol inhalers' – never at any point was it suggested that we go and see a specialist.”

Wiggins says that he continued using over the counter hayfever products but suffered was affected badly by his allergies. The following season, 2011, he avoided any symptoms until racing at the Bayern Rundfahrt at the end of May where he says he ‘had quite a vicious attack.’ It wasn’t until the Dauphine in June that he met with Dr Freeman, who suggested he see a specialist. Following a training camp and the British national championships, Wiggins went to see a specialist on June 28, four days before the start of that year’s Tour de France. The application would be granted, with the date of June 29.

“I saw the specialist, he did a full examination of me, blood tests, this that and the other, I went home, and he compiled his report for Richard Freeman,” Wiggins said. “That’s the report he made to Richard Freeman. Upon doing that, the medication he suggested in there would need an application for a TUE. I was still unaware at this stage of what was happening because it was the first time I’d seen a specialist. Richard called me and said: 'you’ve been granted authorisation for a TUE based on seeing Dr Hargreaves' and that was that. He showed me the TUE application; he showed me the TUE certificate, and it was administered.

In 2012, Wiggins did not suffer any symptoms until he returned to racing following a training camp in Tenerife.

“Then I came back end of May, started to get the onset of symptoms then, once I was back home, we live surrounded by fields and woods, flowers and things so straight away I’d come out of that bubble in Tenerife and was straight into the onset of symptoms. Started all the usual, Clarityn, this that and the other, went to the Dauphiné, symptoms carried on as per usual, won the Dauphiné.”

The second TUE for Triamcinolone acetonide, also known as Kenalog, was issued some time after the Dauphine, in the week leading up to the Tour de France. A third one was issued at the end of April the following season. That’s where the TUEs stop for Wiggins, who says that his early racing schedule meant that he avoided any serious symptoms in 2014, and his decision to move to the track later that season also played a major factor.

“[I] was training indoors most of the time. I wasn’t displaying the symptoms, or they weren’t problematic, it wasn’t a huge issue other than going out on the road around here using Clarityn, eyedrops. I was indoors, I wasn’t having problems with my breathing, I wasn’t complaining about it, I didn’t need to go and see a specialist or anything.

“It was the same in 2015. I knew I’d finish at Paris-Roubaix, I knew I’d go and do the Hour Record project, and 90% of that is going to be indoors... it wasn’t a problem.”



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bradley-wiggins-explains-tue-use-asthma-and-allergies/
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Re:

20 Mar 2018 09:00

yaco wrote:Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.


maybe. or it could be he is a serial sky defender who as Hog suggested, presented a regurgitation of wiggins own story ('facts' as yaco would have you believe) a 'story' according to other people.
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20 Mar 2018 09:33

It should not be forgotten Wiggins' attempt, via Freeman - who was scuppered by more scrupulous team docs - to use Kenalog at the Tour of Britain.

The Devil is in the details.
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Re:

20 Mar 2018 14:11

Dan2016 wrote:It should not be forgotten Wiggins' attempt, via Freeman - who was scuppered by more scrupulous team docs - to use Kenalog at the Tour of Britain.

The Devil is in the details.


Sam missed that one off his list for some reason

And Wiggo won that race so was he really ill...
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2018 14:37

Wiggo's Package wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:It should not be forgotten Wiggins' attempt, via Freeman - who was scuppered by more scrupulous team docs - to use Kenalog at the Tour of Britain.

The Devil is in the details.


Sam missed that one off his list for some reason

And Wiggo won that race so was he really ill...


It wasn’t in Sam list to cut and paste :cool:
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20 Mar 2018 16:02

That's a very impressive medical history rundown on Wiggins there Sam.

Doctor Freeman could have used your services, then maybe there would have been no stolen laptops or lack of medical records.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2018 16:45

pastronef wrote:
ruamruam wrote:
yaco wrote:Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.


Maybe not so loose. He does seem to spend an awful lot of time defencing BC and Sky


he made a list of all the medical asthma-allergy related history of Wiggins career. kudos to him, he didnt throw accusations or guessed about the contents of jiffy bags or whatever.
he wrote a list. he spend an awful lot of time depending, others spend an awful lot of time accusing. that´s what The Clinic is made for I think.


J'ACCUSE!! :razz:
The poster formerly known as yespatterns.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2018 17:03

Wiggo's Package wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:It should not be forgotten Wiggins' attempt, via Freeman - who was scuppered by more scrupulous team docs - to use Kenalog at the Tour of Britain.

The Devil is in the details.


Sam missed that one off his list for some reason

And Wiggo won that race so was he really ill...


indeed!
i m only a Cat 3 rider and i know if i had an allergies/asthma i would not be able to train, let alone hold the repeated 3-5 minutes of 320-350W it would take to hold the wheel in that level of race here so how, it is amazing how many major races have been won by sickly riders suffering from all sorts of allergies and asthma related conditions beating healthy riders isnt it?
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2018 17:21

ruamruam wrote:
yaco wrote:Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.


Maybe not so loose. He does seem to spend an awful lot of time defencing BC and Sky


Does being the president of a cycling club affiliated with BC count ?
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2018 17:46

chuuurles wrote:
ruamruam wrote:
yaco wrote:Nothing like Sam to provide some facts in the middle of overblown hysteria - Gotta think Sam has some loose connections with BC or the cycling peleton.


Maybe not so loose. He does seem to spend an awful lot of time defencing BC and Sky


Does being the president of a cycling club affiliated with BC count ?


Kool Aid and the Gang :cool:
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