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Dr Steve Peters - Is he really just a confidence trickster?

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Dr Steve Peters - Is he really just a confidence trickster?

16 Mar 2013 18:32

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-KI1D5NPJs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r91qf#programme-broadcasts

http://www.teamsky.com/profile/0,27291,17543_8342932,00

http://www.chimpparadox.co.uk/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/dr-steve-peters-from-chimps-to-champs-7462498.html

On the BBC radio 4 today program on at around 42.40 mins this morning, Dr Steve Peters was on air to state his involvement with Rugby Union in the UK. He talked briefly about his "breakthrough" psychological model that had helped UK's amazing achievements in sport in recent years, particularly his involvement in cycling.

It struck me in his interview today, how he was playing down his "inner chimp" mind paradox until promted. In the above Youtube video posted in 2012, during the intro he states that the paradox which he is describing, was developed over 30 years of experience.

Dr Peters has mainly worked with Sky and Bradley Wiggins, British Cycling's Chris Hoy and Vicky Pendelton. And some other minor mentions in other sports so far as I have researched.

So now for why this needs to be in the clinic. Well, if Sky and it's cyclists have been doping, as discussed here on the forum, will this make Dr Peters mind model some what over hyped in the extreme?

I would like the clinics views, but please do your reseach before any flipant remarks. And in particular, no doping innuendo's regarding the chimp stealing the biscuits and not getting caught!
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16 Mar 2013 20:00

Peters got his reputation working with the GB track team, didn't he?
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16 Mar 2013 20:07

"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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16 Mar 2013 20:09

Sports psychology has its time and place. A minority of athletes may benefit from it, most will not.

Dr. Peters was the guy at Sky who interviewed Leinders prior to hiring him.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/14/lance-armstrong-team-sky

That’s all I need to know about the doctor and his inner chimp programme. He’s on the Sky gravy train. I’m sure there will be a new book from him any day now.
northstar
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16 Mar 2013 20:10

northstar wrote:Sports psychology has its time and place. A minority of athletes may benefit from it, most will not.

Dr. Peters was the guy at Sky who interviewed Leinders prior to hiring him.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/14/lance-armstrong-team-sky

That’s all I need to know about the doctor and his inner chimp programme. He’s on the Sky gravy train. I’m sure there will be a new book from him any day now.


ACtually he's left them for British Athletics, though he still does some consulting.

and this is a baiting thread - there are already Sky threads.
Sometimes, I wish all the bits of my life had an ignore button...

hrotha wrote:Following pro cycling is like reading A Song of Ice and Fire. You better not get too attached to any of the characters.


Opinions are a bit like a**eholes. Everybody has one, and they are often full of the same thing.
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16 Mar 2013 20:11

northstar wrote:Sports psychology has its time and place. A minority of athletes may benefit from it, most will not.




rounding errors.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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16 Mar 2013 20:16

martinvickers wrote:ACtually he's left them for British Athletics, though he still does some consulting.

and this is a baiting thread - there are already Sky threads.


I didn't know that. He's listed as Team Sky's Psychiatrist and Head of Medicine on their website. I guess that needs to be updated.
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16 Mar 2013 20:20

Dr Peters should come on here. More chimps than he could ever dream of.
Barnaby
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16 Mar 2013 20:24

northstar wrote:Sports psychology has its time and place. A minority of athletes may benefit from it, most will not.

Dr. Peters was the guy at Sky who interviewed Leinders prior to hiring him.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/14/lance-armstrong-team-sky

That’s all I need to know about the doctor and his inner chimp programme. He’s on the Sky gravy train. I’m sure there will be a new book from him any day now.


He isn't a sport psychologist he's a psyciatrist there is a difference.

Don't you want to look after your chimp and thank that little monkey for stealing all the cookies from the cookie jar and not getting CAUGHT...
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16 Mar 2013 20:30

horsinabout wrote:I would like the clinics views, but please do your reseach before any flipant remarks. And in particular, no doping innuendo's regarding the chimp stealing the biscuits and not getting caught!


horsinabout wrote:Don't you want to look after your chimp and thank that little monkey for stealing all the cookies from the cookie jar and not getting CAUGHT...


Consistency?
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16 Mar 2013 20:33

mattghg wrote:Consistency?


Sorry couldn't resist...that video is a hoot.
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16 Mar 2013 20:36

northstar wrote:I didn't know that. He's listed as Team Sky's Psychiatrist and Head of Medicine on their website. I guess that needs to be updated.


No, as far as I'm aware, it's still his job title, but it's on a contracting basis - the newly titled BA is his 'main' employer now - apparently the younger cyclists saw less need for him...

suspect it suits BC; they still have him as they need, and can share the cost. I've a notion he's supposed to work with the sprint relay people

British Athletics announcement here

Interestingly, this appears something of a journey home - Peters was/is a runner...

Check out the Athletics Weekly cover

Finally, he's done some work with RFU around 2007 - they year they went from chaos to the final of the RWC, as I remember
Sometimes, I wish all the bits of my life had an ignore button...

hrotha wrote:Following pro cycling is like reading A Song of Ice and Fire. You better not get too attached to any of the characters.


Opinions are a bit like a**eholes. Everybody has one, and they are often full of the same thing.
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16 Mar 2013 22:03

Is this known?
Jan van Eijden, now full-time coach of BC and Victoria Pendleton's coach in 2008 and 2012, was removed from the German WC squad in 2000 for high hematocrit values.
The UCI gave him a "Sondergenehmigung" so that he could start all the same.

http://www.rp-online.de/sport/jan-van-eijden-ist-den-doping-makel-los-1.1546407

Is BC a ticking bomb, or what?

This inner chimp thing is crazy by the way.
peace in middle east
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16 Mar 2013 22:12

If Radioshack/Leopard had someone like Peters, they would have intervened far earlier to help Andy Schleck. (He seems to be suffering something akin to depression--no laughing matter, and not uncommon among procyclists, e.g. Tyler Hamilton among others).

I think the inner chimp stuff is just a simplified (ie. useable) use of the concept of one aspect of our brain, our so-called reptilian, knee-jerk brain tendencies. That's hardly in dispute in the field. Ample evidence of that in the clinic! :D
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16 Mar 2013 22:17

peace in middle east wrote:
Is this known?
Jan van Eijden, now full-time coach of BC and Victoria Pendleton's coach in 2008 and 2012, was removed from the German WC squad in 2000 for high hematocrit values.
The UCI gave him a "Sondergenehmigung" so that he could start all the same.


Oh yes I knew, and I have brougt this up on a number of occasions, right here on the form

http://www.rp-online.de/sport/jan-van-eijden-ist-den-doping-makel-los-1.1546407

Is BC a ticking bomb, or what?

This inner chimp thing is crazy by the way.


:mad:
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16 Mar 2013 22:21

peace in middle east wrote:Is this known?Yes and I have raised this issue right here on the forum

Jan van Eijden, now full-time coach of BC and Victoria Pendleton's coach in 2008 and 2012, was removed from the German WC squad in 2000 for high hematocrit values.
The UCI gave him a "Sondergenehmigung" so that he could start all the same.

http://www.rp-online.de/sport/jan-van-eijden-ist-den-doping-makel-los-1.1546407

Is BC a ticking bomb, or what?

This inner chimp thing is crazy by the way.


Yes and I have raised this issue right here on the forum

:mad:...............
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16 Mar 2013 22:41

Parrot23 wrote:If Radioshack/Leopard had someone like Peters, they would have intervened far earlier to help Andy Schleck. (He seems to be suffering something akin to depression--no laughing matter, and not uncommon among procyclists, e.g. Tyler Hamilton among others).

I think the inner chimp stuff is just a simplified (ie. useable) use of the concept of one aspect of our brain, our so-called reptilian, knee-jerk brain tendencies. That's hardly in dispute in the field. Ample evidence of that in the clinic! :D


I've no notion if Andy dopes or not. At this precise stage, not sure I care; the lad's in awful trouble by the looks of things, and he needs a hand - goes much deeper than just riding a bike. However it happens, hope he gets the help he needs.
Sometimes, I wish all the bits of my life had an ignore button...

hrotha wrote:Following pro cycling is like reading A Song of Ice and Fire. You better not get too attached to any of the characters.


Opinions are a bit like a**eholes. Everybody has one, and they are often full of the same thing.
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16 Mar 2013 22:43

peace in middle east wrote:Is this known?
Jan van Eijden, now full-time coach of BC and Victoria Pendleton's coach in 2008 and 2012, was removed from the German WC squad in 2000 for high hematocrit values.
The UCI gave him a "Sondergenehmigung" so that he could start all the same.

http://www.rp-online.de/sport/jan-van-eijden-ist-den-doping-makel-los-1.1546407

Is BC a ticking bomb, or what?

This inner chimp thing is crazy by the way.


Sondergenehmigung seems basically to be a TEU - literally a "special approval"
Sometimes, I wish all the bits of my life had an ignore button...

hrotha wrote:Following pro cycling is like reading A Song of Ice and Fire. You better not get too attached to any of the characters.


Opinions are a bit like a**eholes. Everybody has one, and they are often full of the same thing.
User avatar martinvickers
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16 Mar 2013 22:50

Parrot23 wrote:If Radioshack/Leopard had someone like Peters, they would have intervened far earlier to help Andy Schleck. (He seems to be suffering something akin to depression--no laughing matter, and not uncommon among procyclists, e.g. Tyler Hamilton among others).

I think the inner chimp stuff is just a simplified (ie. useable) use of the concept of one aspect of our brain, our so-called reptilian, knee-jerk brain tendencies. That's hardly in dispute in the field. Ample evidence of that in the clinic! :D


The notion of a reptilian brain (part of MacLean's triune brain theory from the 60s) is outdated. The basal ganglia (which MacLean identified with the reptilian brain) is in fact an extremely flexible behavioral system that is nowadays identified with a 'habit' system in the brain, which uses model-free reinforcement learning (Temporal Difference learning, etc.) to build associations between actions and values.

The idea of an 'inner chimp' is also pretty vacuous, as much of what Peters dismisses as irrational and emotional is in fact highly adaptive. Proper neuroscientists and researchers working in judgment and decision-making refer to it as an intuitive system, which is contrasted with a deliberative system, but do not put the deliberative system on a pinnacle the way Peters does (which is very old-fashioned). Depending on the information available in a particular decision context, the output of the intuitive system is normatively a better guide to decision-making than the deliberative system.

That said, Peters - like much of psychiatry - provides a compelling and simple way to explain behavior and may be a useful fable to help athletes perform better.
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16 Mar 2013 23:18

mastersracer wrote:<snip>....

That said, Peters - like much of psychiatry - provides a compelling and simple way to explain behavior and [color="Red"]may be a useful fable to help athletes perform better[/color].


Thanks. You know more than I do on this. Looked at his book on Amazon (didn't appeal to me at least).

On your latter point, yes there may be a placebo effect here. "Placebo doping" (but with bread and water), ha, ha!

Just wait, I bet a new thread on Sky is going to start up, "Dirty Rotten Placebo Doping", with Peters instructing team docs. to hand out fancy blue and red pills (filled with flavoured water) in the morning before big stages, and everyone's watts/kgs jumps :D

A second thought: in cycling, being "in the zone", in the flow etc., is not nearly as important as it is in sports with a much higher skill-base, tennis and golf etc, where excess deliberation will kill performance but flow and automaticity will make it superb. Intuitive system may not be very important in cycling, except when choosing to attack or reading the race at crucial moments.

In cycling, deliberative learning/control as to when NOT to react to attacks, as Froome was learning last year, may be more important. Horner said Sky and Froome in particular was very calm and collected in Tirreno when Bertie etc. was burning his matchsticks. So, the crudity of the reptilian metaphor might fit cycling. May not matter whether he's wrong or right in the bigger scheme, just that it works in this case, per placebo effect.
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