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Cannondale getting dropped in the new era of cycling

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01 Sep 2017 09:23

The Cannondale shirts are quite hideous as well
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01 Sep 2017 11:34

Jeremy Whittle:
But if Vaughters and his team can pull off this survival act - and it now looks more possible than this time last week - there is a need to reassert those principles, loud and clear, at a time when anti-doping voices appear to be increasingly thin on the ground.

That's the dream. The reality is that modern cycling is run on hard cash and that sponsors, particularly those that are not already within the sport, have to be seduced. And that seduction process is probably a lot easier for a team with a simple, uncomplicated image.
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02 Sep 2017 10:04

What's that about clouds and silver linings?
Joerg Jaksche@jaksche
Great new personal revenue model for MBA cycling managers:
1. sign riders for 100
2. tell them there is no sponsor
3. resign them for 50
12:40 AM - 2 Sep 2017
I'm sure this is not happening, even cheerleaders like VN wouldn't stand quietly buy while something like this was going on, not even those nut-jobs in The Outer Line could sit silently were riders to be being abused in such a manner. Mr Jaksche, he is merely being hypothetical, that's all.
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Re:

02 Sep 2017 12:03

fmk_RoI wrote:What's that about clouds and silver linings?
Joerg Jaksche@jaksche
Great new personal revenue model for MBA cycling managers:
1. sign riders for 100
2. tell them there is no sponsor
3. resign them for 50
12:40 AM - 2 Sep 2017
I'm sure this is not happening, even cheerleaders like VN wouldn't stand quietly buy while something like this was going on, not even those nut-jobs in The Outer Line could sit silently were riders to be being abused in such a manner. Mr Jaksche, he is merely being hypothetical, that's all.


I guess Mr Jaksche hit the bullseye. On some Italian pro conti teams riders have to provide their own wages in a lot of cases from 'self-sponosroship'.

That JV is crap at the pro WT cycling business is evident in the amount of sponsors he goes through and that he has had to merge with other teams a few times.

Never mind that recently he has been shown to be a hypocrite about resigning from the sport should doping happen on his team.
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04 Sep 2017 11:58

Cant see Vaughters getting someone to sponsor a team in a sport where hidden motors are a thing.
User avatar Benotti69
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Re:

04 Sep 2017 19:26

Beech Mtn wrote:I would like to understand the reported 100 full-time employees by Cannondale. 28 of them are riders. Plus a general manager, directors sportif, mechanics, soigneurs, a bus driver, a cook, a press officer, a couple office staff, a doctor or two, a general gofer, somebody to work at the service course. That seems more like 60, maybe 70 people. I know they need folks for the US scene and folks for Europe, but 100 still seems like a lot to be all full-time employees, particularly for a small budget team. Can some of these folks be seasonal/part-time workers, or double-up on jobs?



Multiply that time 3. Youll have at least 2 full time WT squads racing in different places, and occasionally there will be 3 full squads racing in different countries or continents.
Add to that the US and EU based service course, and the marketing and logistics, and, and ,
You could easily get to 100. They might not all be FTE's, but they easily employ 100 people, as does every WT team.

Its easy enough to not like JV, and I dont disagree with a lot of the criticism he gets, but they seem to be pretty reasonable with their spending. I know a few of the guys currently riding for him, as well as a few Washington Redskins players, and the financial differences are striking.
If I had to spend the rest of eternity trapped in a lift with an armchair football manager or an armchair marginal gains scientist, I would take the former in a heartbeat.
.Froomestrong.
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Re: Re:

04 Sep 2017 19:42

Benotti69 wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:What's that about clouds and silver linings?
Joerg Jaksche@jaksche
Great new personal revenue model for MBA cycling managers:
1. sign riders for 100
2. tell them there is no sponsor
3. resign them for 50
12:40 AM - 2 Sep 2017
I'm sure this is not happening, even cheerleaders like VN wouldn't stand quietly buy while something like this was going on, not even those nut-jobs in The Outer Line could sit silently were riders to be being abused in such a manner. Mr Jaksche, he is merely being hypothetical, that's all.


I guess Mr Jaksche hit the bullseye. On some Italian pro conti teams riders have to provide their own wages in a lot of cases from 'self-sponosroship'.

That JV is crap at the pro WT cycling business is evident in the amount of sponsors he goes through and that he has had to merge with other teams a few times.

Never mind that recently he has been shown to be a hypocrite about resigning from the sport should doping happen on his team.


As Ive said previously, there is plenty to criticize JV about, but his dealing with sponsors doesnt seem to be one of them, in my opinion. I would suggest that with his reliance on US based sponsors, he is at an immediate disadvantage. Just take a look at the domestic professional cycling scene- to the extent that it even exists. Its a damn miracle that anyone pays people to race bicycles in the US at this point. From my vantage point, it seems that corporate sponsors have figured out that there are lots of better ways to see ROI, than to sponsor a pro cycling team. No amount of snake oil and glad-handing is going to change that reality- especially with the amount of data available from digital marketing campaigns in 2017. This isnt a JV issue, this is a "no one in the US gives a hoot about pro cycling" issue.

Buy-a-ride is really common in motorcycle racing, (which I know very well) and apparently many forms of car racing as well. The business model is roughly similar, which leads to this sort of thing, I think.
In domestic superbike racing, its rare to see a non-factory team go an entire season without changing sponsors around, changing riders, folding up and going away entirely, you name it. Just last week, Meen Motorsports basically withdrew from the MotoAmerica SBK series with only a few rounds left in the season. leaving the riders, and support staff with nothing. This is not the first time this has happened.
World Superbike is only marginally better in this regard. Ive seen dozens of teams fold mid-season, with little regard for the staff or riders.
MotoGP is slightly better than that, but then MotoGP has revenue sharing from the organizers, without which the grids would be barren. Even then, or the 22 full time riders, I would guess that less than half get paid to ride, while the rest all bring money to the teams for a bike and a spot on the grid.
If I had to spend the rest of eternity trapped in a lift with an armchair football manager or an armchair marginal gains scientist, I would take the former in a heartbeat.
.Froomestrong.
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Re: Re:

04 Sep 2017 20:57

.Froomestrong. wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:What's that about clouds and silver linings?
Joerg Jaksche@jaksche
Great new personal revenue model for MBA cycling managers:
1. sign riders for 100
2. tell them there is no sponsor
3. resign them for 50
12:40 AM - 2 Sep 2017
I'm sure this is not happening, even cheerleaders like VN wouldn't stand quietly buy while something like this was going on, not even those nut-jobs in The Outer Line could sit silently were riders to be being abused in such a manner. Mr Jaksche, he is merely being hypothetical, that's all.


I guess Mr Jaksche hit the bullseye. On some Italian pro conti teams riders have to provide their own wages in a lot of cases from 'self-sponosroship'.

That JV is crap at the pro WT cycling business is evident in the amount of sponsors he goes through and that he has had to merge with other teams a few times.

Never mind that recently he has been shown to be a hypocrite about resigning from the sport should doping happen on his team.


As Ive said previously, there is plenty to criticize JV about, but his dealing with sponsors doesnt seem to be one of them, in my opinion. I would suggest that with his reliance on US based sponsors, he is at an immediate disadvantage. Just take a look at the domestic professional cycling scene- to the extent that it even exists. Its a damn miracle that anyone pays people to race bicycles in the US at this point. From my vantage point, it seems that corporate sponsors have figured out that there are lots of better ways to see ROI, than to sponsor a pro cycling team. No amount of snake oil and glad-handing is going to change that reality- especially with the amount of data available from digital marketing campaigns in 2017. This isnt a JV issue, this is a "no one in the US gives a hoot about pro cycling" issue.

Buy-a-ride is really common in motorcycle racing, (which I know very well) and apparently many forms of car racing as well. The business model is roughly similar, which leads to this sort of thing, I think.
In domestic superbike racing, its rare to see a non-factory team go an entire season without changing sponsors around, changing riders, folding up and going away entirely, you name it. Just last week, Meen Motorsports basically withdrew from the MotoAmerica SBK series with only a few rounds left in the season. leaving the riders, and support staff with nothing. This is not the first time this has happened.
World Superbike is only marginally better in this regard. Ive seen dozens of teams fold mid-season, with little regard for the staff or riders.
MotoGP is slightly better than that, but then MotoGP has revenue sharing from the organizers, without which the grids would be barren. Even then, or the 22 full time riders, I would guess that less than half get paid to ride, while the rest all bring money to the teams for a bike and a spot on the grid.


JV basing his business on US sponsorship for a mostly European sport is nonsensical. No wonder he burns through so many sponsors and team mergers. Maybe he should've done his MBA in Europe since that is where he needs to attract long term sponsors.

As for the comparison of motorsports and cycling. Motorsports has a much bigger reach and bigger richer corporations backing it. It also relies on a riders ability rather than born with physical attributes and how well they react to PEDs. Not dissing motorsports especially motogp, some super talented riders doing great stuff on 2 wheels.

I don't disagree with the model of bringing sponsorship at a lower level* but it is a bit much at pro conti and WT (not that i know of it happening at WT level yet)

As far as i understand the F1 driver model, most drivers get sponsored at a lower level (formula ford etc) and relinquish a percentage of their earnings if they make it to F1. So the people get a return on investing in a driver.
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Re: Re:

04 Sep 2017 21:27

Benotti69 wrote:I don't disagree with the model of bringing sponsorship at a lower level* but it is a bit much at pro conti and WT (not that i know of it happening at WT level yet)
Cav, Di-Data, Deloitte.
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Re: Re:

04 Sep 2017 21:37

fmk_RoI wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:I don't disagree with the model of bringing sponsorship at a lower level* but it is a bit much at pro conti and WT (not that i know of it happening at WT level yet)
Cav, Di-Data, Deloitte.

Sagan and Specialized. Previously Contador and Specialized.
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04 Sep 2017 22:09

Alexander Vinokourov and Astana
Beech Mtn
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Re:

05 Sep 2017 17:52

Benotti69 wrote:Cant see Vaughters getting someone to sponsor a team in a sport where hidden motors are a thing.


So then why are sponsors not scared of other sports (tennis, American NFL football, baseball/MLB) where there is clearly a ton of doping? I find this hard to sort out.
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Re: Re:

05 Sep 2017 18:19

nayr497 wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Cant see Vaughters getting someone to sponsor a team in a sport where hidden motors are a thing.


So then why are sponsors not scared of other sports (tennis, American NFL football, baseball/MLB) where there is clearly a ton of doping? I find this hard to sort out.
Those other sports don't talk about it.
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Re: Re:

05 Sep 2017 20:11

nayr497 wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Cant see Vaughters getting someone to sponsor a team in a sport where hidden motors are a thing.


So then why are sponsors not scared of other sports (tennis, American NFL football, baseball/MLB) where there is clearly a ton of doping? I find this hard to sort out.


Doping is not an issue as it is rarely addressed.

Look at NFL and the head injury, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and how they are doing everything in their power to bury this and make it a non issue.

Cycling has a name as a doping sport and those who run it have failed to address it.

Vaughters merely paid lip service to it. When it came to Danielson he ducked the issue.
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 00:35


JV basing his business on US sponsorship for a mostly European sport is nonsensical. No wonder he burns through so many sponsors and team mergers. Maybe he should've done his MBA in Europe since that is where he needs to attract long term sponsors.

As for the comparison of motorsports and cycling. Motorsports has a much bigger reach and bigger richer corporations backing it. It also relies on a riders ability rather than born with physical attributes and how well they react to PEDs. Not dissing motorsports especially motogp, some super talented riders doing great stuff on 2 wheels.

I don't disagree with the model of bringing sponsorship at a lower level* but it is a bit much at pro conti and WT (not that i know of it happening at WT level yet)

As far as i understand the F1 driver model, most drivers get sponsored at a lower level (formula ford etc) and relinquish a percentage of their earnings if they make it to F1. So the people get a return on investing in a driver.


It may be non-sensical from your perspective, but given that he has in fact run a WT level team for the last decade...likely attracting more than $100m during that time, Id say he has certainly done much better than I could have. Point being- there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of JV to be had, without resorting to this line of attack. Personally, Im glad that he has been able to give some of our domestic riders a chance at WT level cycling.

The F1 driver model never returns money to sponsors from driver contracts once they reach F1. Ever. That isnt a thing. Seriously, the majority of the grid is reliant on personal sponsors to put drivers in cars.
What those long term sponsors are counting on is loyalty from those drivers once they get somewhere with real visibility, like F1.
In MotoGP, you see Nastro Azzura (sp) still getting visibility on Rossi, from helping him as a teenager; Marc Marquez was a Repsol rider from like 5 or 6 yrs old, and is now riding for the Honda Factory squad; the list goes on and on.
We have invested in sponsoring riders very early in the development ladder, and have helped them through until WSBK, MotoGP, SX, and so on.
Thing is, the basics of the revenue model are very similar, and despite what you might think, the audience for motorcycle racing is not as big as pro cycling. The Tour alone gets more eyeballs than the entire season of MotoGP. Again, MotoGP does have some form of revenue sharing, from a smaller pot overall.

I can only hope that this turns around for the WT teams, and JV's team in particular.
If I had to spend the rest of eternity trapped in a lift with an armchair football manager or an armchair marginal gains scientist, I would take the former in a heartbeat.
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 00:42

Benotti69 wrote:
nayr497 wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Cant see Vaughters getting someone to sponsor a team in a sport where hidden motors are a thing.


So then why are sponsors not scared of other sports (tennis, American NFL football, baseball/MLB) where there is clearly a ton of doping? I find this hard to sort out.


Doping is not an issue as it is rarely addressed.

Look at NFL and the head injury, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and how they are doing everything in their power to bury this and make it a non issue.

Cycling has a name as a doping sport and those who run it have failed to address it.

Vaughters merely paid lip service to it. When it came to Danielson he ducked the issue.


That is, unfortunately, true.
I just watched a discussion about the recent death of a 26 year old Mr. Olympia competitor, and the bodybuilders mentioned cycling as a drug riddled sport. Very surreal, considering the compounds and dosages that pro bodybuilders openly admit to using.

Thing is, I dont know that anything can be done by the people in cycling to change that perception, to be honest. JV certainly ducked the Danielson issue. They should have thrown him clear under the bus, repeatedly.
Still, the NFL and NBA owners are openly arguing for allowing HGH usage, among other things, and no one bats an eye. Seriously, how can you explain 300lb men running and jumping so fast and so on?
If I had to spend the rest of eternity trapped in a lift with an armchair football manager or an armchair marginal gains scientist, I would take the former in a heartbeat.
.Froomestrong.
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06 Sep 2017 10:44

WRT the 100: here the number is only 60

Also in that, and WRT the comment above that "there is plenty to criticize JV about, but his dealing with sponsors doesnt seem to be one of them" - note the reference in that link to Liberty Global. In 2014, when the Cannondale merger happened (and the new team's budget was reported to be $25 million), Liberty Global (who put money into the Colorado race) were named as having turned Slipstream down. Now I don't know about you, but I'm not sure bitching about firms that refuse to sponsor you is a good thing. Would I want to get into a convo with you about sponsorship if I knew that at the end of, if I didn't sign, you'd someday, somehow, badmouth me? Like the way JV badmouthed NetFlix?
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06 Sep 2017 12:54

JV has burned through a lot of sponsors.

Maybe that is result linked or as Fmk demonstrates that JV's mouths is way ahead of his thought process. If i was a business man i would not slam someone who did not sponsor me this year, because who knows they might in 2 or 3 years, but if i criticise them now for not they definitely won't in the future. Maybe JV is MBA smarts but not practical smarts.

I mean a WT team should be winning their home races, especially if their sponsors are from there. That should be #1 goal to keep sponsors keen and happy. Tour of Alberta not won by JV in this a time when he desperately needs results? Not smarts.
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Re:

06 Sep 2017 13:56

Benotti69 wrote:JV has burned through a lot of sponsors.

Maybe that is result linked or as Fmk demonstrates that JV's mouths is way ahead of his thought process. If i was a business man i would not slam someone who did not sponsor me this year, because who knows they might in 2 or 3 years, but if i criticise them now for not they definitely won't in the future. Maybe JV is MBA smarts but not practical smarts.

I mean a WT team should be winning their home races, especially if their sponsors are from there. That should be #1 goal to keep sponsors keen and happy. Tour of Alberta not won by JV in this a time when he desperately needs results? Not smarts.


Agreed- not smart to throw shade when you are looking for sponsors, in my opinion. But again, its hard to say that I could do it better since Im not the one running a WT team. Glass houses and all that.

WRT the Tour of Alberta, his guys did just win 3 of 4 stages, so in reality they got exactly what they wanted for the sponsors- pictures of his guys winning and posting up, and podium shots.
Yes, they 17 of us on the forum will say that they didnt win GC, but I dont think many sponsors even know what that is. Optics are what matter most in sponsorship. Just saying...
If I had to spend the rest of eternity trapped in a lift with an armchair football manager or an armchair marginal gains scientist, I would take the former in a heartbeat.
.Froomestrong.
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 14:15

.Froomestrong. wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:JV has burned through a lot of sponsors.

Maybe that is result linked or as Fmk demonstrates that JV's mouths is way ahead of his thought process. If i was a business man i would not slam someone who did not sponsor me this year, because who knows they might in 2 or 3 years, but if i criticise them now for not they definitely won't in the future. Maybe JV is MBA smarts but not practical smarts.

I mean a WT team should be winning their home races, especially if their sponsors are from there. That should be #1 goal to keep sponsors keen and happy. Tour of Alberta not won by JV in this a time when he desperately needs results? Not smarts.


Agreed- not smart to throw shade when you are looking for sponsors, in my opinion. But again, its hard to say that I could do it better since Im not the one running a WT team. Glass houses and all that.

WRT the Tour of Alberta, his guys did just win 3 of 4 stages, so in reality they got exactly what they wanted for the sponsors- pictures of his guys winning and posting up, and podium shots.
Yes, they 17 of us on the forum will say that they didnt win GC, but I dont think many sponsors even know what that is. Optics are what matter most in sponsorship. Just saying...


When you put your head above the parapet and boy JV loves doing it, he just cant stand the negatives (which he mostly creates) be prepared to get shot at.

Winning overall is the end result as that is the final podium and generates more publicity. Yeah they did well but not well enough! Optics being what matter, final podium gets most. Hence some of JV's sponsor problems.

I think sponsors nowadays are very careful where they put their monies and know what generates most publicity. I guess american companies have hosts of interns researching stuff like this. Be mad not too!
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