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Brits don't dope?

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Brits don't dope?

16 Jun 2013 07:22

You see this quite often being wheeled out implicitly in the media (Harmon etc), by fans, riders etc.

'Britain doesn't have a culture of doping, unlike Europe.'

'In Britain people play by the rules'

'I'd be crucified if I doped so I would never'

And variations on this theme - McQuaid's comments on the Anglo-Saxon world etc.

And of course the view that Spain, Eastern Europe etc are dopers paradises etc

To paraphrase the infamous Tory party quote that 'Wogs begin at Calais' it seems that for many people 'dopers begin at Calais'.

Is there any evidence of Britain having a specifically stringent drug testing which means that anyone so much as thinking of doping gets popped?

The UK has not had any major scandals such as Puerto, Festina, USP - is that absence of evidence (of doping), or evidence of absence (of doping)?

Noting that most large scale busts have involved law enforcement. Is it that UK police simply don't have any interest in anti-doping investigations considering it to the sporting matter (and besides for them there are more important things to do like public shows of force against hippies, students and brown people)

Does it actually hold up that there is an 'anti-doping culture' in UK sport given the track record of cycling in the UK - Simpson, Yates, Millar, numerous track and field, the lack of testing in football, rugby etc

Why go with this line? Is it a line to sell to the nationalists to get to jump onto the bandwagon, to sell a few more copies of your book in W.H.Smith to the Blue Rinse brigade? Does anyone sane and rational actually believe that Brits don't dope - or does believing the latter make the former an impossibility?
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User avatar Mrs John Murphy
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16 Jun 2013 07:35

We already have enough brit threads, this will just evolve into another froome thread :D
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16 Jun 2013 07:42

Of course there is doping in the UK.

Go to any meathead gym and you'll see loads of men pumped up on roids. There have also been a fair range of UK athletes caught, many of whom have been ripped to shreds in the media (Chambers and Ouhouragou), although I think it is fair to say that if the athletes are black they come in for extra invective from certain quarters of UK media. Doping is not accepted by the public and cheats are regarded with disdain (much like anywhere else) but that does not mean they don't exist, nor that they are actively hunted out.

Tommy Simpson is romantisized, but of course he is from a different era when doping was not regarded in the same way. Still, the first thing that any non-cycling fan will tel you about Simpson, was that he died from drug use.

In fact, cycling is widely regarded with disdain due to the widely held belief that most/all of the athletes cheat. Curiously, nobody ever thinks to question drug use in sports other than cycling and athletics. Rugby seems to receive little or no scrutiny, and Ferdinand's missed drug tests barely raised an eyebrow in the football world. Can you think what I reaction there would be if Wiggins or Cavendish received a ban for missed tests?

The reason there have been no Puerto style busts is that cycling is still miniscule in the UK, compared to the continent.
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16 Jun 2013 08:04

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
'Britain doesn't have a culture of doping, unlike Europe.'



michael rogers said that in Aus. words to effect of "we(australians) have a different ethic".
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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16 Jun 2013 08:07

Mrs John Murphy wrote:You see this quite often being wheeled out implicitly in the media (Harmon etc), by fans, riders etc.

'Britain doesn't have a culture of doping, unlike Europe.'

'In Britain people play by the rules'

'I'd be crucified if I doped so I would never'

And variations on this theme - McQuaid's comments on the Anglo-Saxon world etc.

And of course the view that Spain, Eastern Europe etc are dopers paradises etc

To paraphrase the infamous Tory party quote that 'Wogs begin at Calais' it seems that for many people 'dopers begin at Calais'.

Is there any evidence of Britain having a specifically stringent drug testing which means that anyone so much as thinking of doping gets popped?

The UK has not had any major scandals such as Puerto, Festina, USP - is that absence of evidence (of doping), or evidence of absence (of doping)?

Noting that most large scale busts have involved law enforcement. Is it that UK police simply don't have any interest in anti-doping investigations considering it to the sporting matter (and besides for them there are more important things to do like public shows of force against hippies, students and brown people)

Does it actually hold up that there is an 'anti-doping culture' in UK sport given the track record of cycling in the UK - Simpson, Yates, Millar, numerous track and field, the lack of testing in football, rugby etc

Why go with this line? Is it a line to sell to the nationalists to get to jump onto the bandwagon, to sell a few more copies of your book in W.H.Smith to the Blue Rinse brigade? Does anyone sane and rational actually believe that Brits don't dope - or does believing the latter make the former an impossibility?

tis what i like to call the

gordonstoun chariots of fire muscular christianity stiff upper lip oxbridge work ethic

caveat: what goes on in boarding dorms of public schools and oxbridge colleges stays in those hallows(sic) /Wilde
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16 Jun 2013 08:12

DirtyDennis wrote:Of course there is doping in the UK.

Go to any meathead gym and you'll see loads of men pumped up on roids. There have also been a fair range of UK athletes caught, many of whom have been ripped to shreds in the media (Chambers and Ouhouragou), although I think it is fair to say that if the athletes are black they come in for extra invective from certain quarters of UK media. Doping is not accepted by the public and cheats are regarded with disdain (much like anywhere else) but that does not mean they don't exist, nor that they are actively hunted out.

Tommy Simpson is romantisized, but of course he is from a different era when doping was not regarded in the same way. Still, the first thing that any non-cycling fan will tel you about Simpson, was that he died from drug use.

In fact, cycling is widely regarded with disdain due to the widely held belief that most/all of the athletes cheat. Curiously, nobody ever thinks to question drug use in sports other than cycling and athletics. Rugby seems to receive little or no scrutiny, and Ferdinand's missed drug tests barely raised an eyebrow in the football world. Can you think what I reaction there would be if Wiggins or Cavendish received a ban for missed tests?

The reason there have been no Puerto style busts is that cycling is still miniscule in the UK, compared to the continent.

what if it came out that steve redgrave is not preturnaturally thinning/bald with any excess gene of alpha reductase hormone but from exogenous testo? how those boat race oxbridge gatherings go down then eh
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16 Jun 2013 08:16

blackcat wrote:michael rogers said that in Aus. words to effect of "we(australians) have a different ethic".


I've heard it from Australian friends too. "Australians don't cheat" "They would never cheat because they would get torn to shreds"


(O'Grady and McEwen seemed to manage fine without doping, at the height of the EPO era, though, didn't they)
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16 Jun 2013 08:19

Surely it would just be easier to start a thread entitled "here is your chance to talk **** about Brits"?

I guess the Mods won't shut it down, if you pretend you are actually asking a question.....
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16 Jun 2013 08:22

blackcat wrote: how those boat race oxbridge gatherings go down then eh


Well, the Boat race is strictly amateur and participants are drawn from students of the two universities. Redgrave was never a student there and so never competed, although Pinsent was and did on several occasions.

I have no idea if they are dope tested BTW.
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16 Jun 2013 08:23

DirtyDennis wrote:I've heard it from Australian friends too. "Australians don't cheat" "They would never cheat because they would get torn to shreds"


(O'Grady and McEwen seemed to manage fine without doping, at the height of the EPO era, though, didn't they)

australia and america are up there with the best russian and spanish programs, dont worry about that.
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16 Jun 2013 08:25

DirtyDennis wrote:Well, the Boat race is strictly amateur and participants are drawn from students of the two universities. Redgrave was never a student there and so never competed, although Pinsent was and did on several occasions.

I have no idea if they are dope tested BTW.

i was talking about redgrave and his haul of medals. australian rowers dope. just a quick look at their foreheads massive tell
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16 Jun 2013 08:25

blackcat wrote:australia and america are up there with the best russian and spanish programs, dont worry about that.



Of that Ive no doubt, but we are talking about public perceptions went we?

Besides, the nationality thing is a bit of a red herring in cycling isn't it?

andy1234 wrote:Surely it would just be easier to start a thread entitled "here is your chance to talk **** about Brits"?


Hey come on...its just the internet. Dont be so sensitive.

Besides, you have to expect a bit of jealousy when you've pushed other nations off the podium and into obscurity ;)
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16 Jun 2013 08:33

DirtyDennis wrote:Of that If no doubt, but we are talking about public perceptions went we?

Besides, the nationality thing is a bit of a red herring in cycling isn't it?



Hey come on...its just the internet. Dont be so sensitive.

Besides, you have to expect a bit of jealousy when you've pushed other nations of the podium and into obscurity ;)

perceptions. australians dont believe australians dope. like the OP by Kim Deal on the Brits.

think the nationality thing is a red herring writ large. think doping specific or discrete sport, is also a red herring. we are looking at type A personalities, their identity and existential drive is channeled thru their competition.

that is a barrier to entry and niche. IN NO WAY does it reflect society norms. there were recent studies on sociopathy with executives at major international companies. no the normal spectrum.
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16 Jun 2013 08:47

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
The UK has not had any major scandals such as Puerto, Festina, USP - is that absence of evidence (of doping), or evidence of absence (of doping)?



More likely evidence of the absence of anti-doping. :D
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16 Jun 2013 08:48

100% Top post Blackcat
USPS is a classic example....Mixed nationality team, doping provided by Spanish and Italians, managed by a Belgian , and paid for by US taxpayers :D

But yes, your salient point is that the mentality that drives these types of people does not recognise borders. Nationality is a red-herring in this respect.

Where it is salient is in respect of the attitude of national federations (I'm thinking here of the frankly risible attempt by the Spanish to torpedo Contador's drug positive, with the help of the Spanish prime minister), and also the law..Some countries have been quicker than others to criminalise doping.

Quite where the UK stands in this is interesting. The British Olympic committee did their utmost to prevent convicted dopers like Millar representing the country in the Olympics, but of course once the legal impediment was removed Team GB welcomed him with open arms
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16 Jun 2013 08:51

DirtyDennis wrote:Well, the Boat race is strictly amateur and participants are drawn from students of the two universities. Redgrave was never a student there and so never competed, although Pinsent was and did on several occasions.

I have no idea if they are dope tested BTW.

One of the problems that i have with rowing is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/58335.stm

Friday, February 20, 1998 Published at 07:21 GMT



Sport

Top rowing coach 'used drugs'

During the 1970s and 1980s the East Germans dominated Olympic rowing
A top rowing coach who works with the British Olympic champion Steve Redgrave is believed to have used banned drugs in the former East Germany.

Jürgen Grobler's name appears on documents which have been unearthed by the BBC.

He now works for Britain's Amateur Rowing Association at the Leander Rowing Club in Henley-on-Thames, Oxfordshire, but there is no suggestion he has used prohibited drugs in Britain.



Jürgen Grobler pictured (left) with Steve Redgrave
He helped Redgrave win two of his four gold medals but again there is no suggestion the Briton was involved in drug-taking in any way.

Banned drugs

Mr Grobler has admitted he encouraged young rowers to take banned drugs in the 1970s and 1980s.

East Germany dominated rowing between 1972 and 1988, winning 45 Olympic medals, 31 of them gold.

Olympic gold medallist Martin Cross recalls: "Competing against the East Germans was absolutely hellish. They had won medal after medal and I assumed at the time they just trained more and were better athletes and I was doing well being in the same race as them."



Martin Cross: "We thought they just trained more"
But perfection came not only from a ruthless training regime but also the systematic use of bodybuilding drugs.

Corrupt system

Mr Grobler was one of East Germany's top coaches and has admitted being part of the corrupt system.

In 1989 the East German secret police, the Stasi, destroyed thousands of files containing sensitive material but documents about the use of drugs survived.

Many former East German athletes have claimed the routine use of anabolic steroids and other bodybuilding or stamina-giving drugs led to long-term health problems.

Marion Tschisgale says she was a guinea pig: "I started taking the pills when I was 10 and then I got chronic kidney infections. They happened more and more and at shorter intervals."

She was in constant pain for a long time and nearly lost her daughter in childbirth.

The German Unity Crime Commission is about to prosecute several of those responsible for giving drugs to at least 10,000 athletes.

State-controlled programme

Dr Giselher Spitzer, who is investigating doping for the German government, says: "It was a state-controlled programme to used performance-enhancing drugs within the sports of the GDR. Rowing was a centre of research."

"If people asked what the pills were they were told they were vitamins. If someone asked too much they were thrown out of the sport."

He says Mr Grobler was within the "inner circle" which ran East Germany's rowing schools, where children as young as 10 were given anabolic steroids.

Dirk Schildhauer, a former East German sculler and double junior silver medallist, says the use of Turinabol, an anabolic drug made in East Germany, was mandatory.

"Every rower in the national squad was given the blue pills. I think they continued to take them right up until they were in the national squad."

Avoided doping tests

He says they became adept at avoiding doping control tests.

Wilfried Hofmann, former president of the East German Rowing Association, denies drugs were widely used.

He says: "Our performances were down to our training and our coaching methods and the opportunities we had and there was nothing else to it.

"I can say with certainty we did not rely on anabolic agents or any other drugs."

After the fall of the Berlin wall East German coaches went to work in America, Australia and Europe.

Mr Grobler told the BBC's Newsnight programme he did not want to talk about his past.

He said: "I have to live with what went on in East Germany. I was born in the wrong place. It was not possible to walk away."

Stasi informant

Mr Grobler admitted he had "difficulties" with the thought of the former rowers who had health problems but added: "No-one was pushed. They always had the choice to walk away."

He denied being a Stasi member but admitted giving them occasional snippets of information.



Martin Brandon Bravo: "He has our backing"
Martin Brandon Bravo, president of Britain's Amateur Rowing Association, admits they never asked Mr Grobler about whether he had been involved in the use of banned drugs.

But he says: "Until there is some serious evidence that man has our backing."

Steve Redgrave defended his coach: "I've known Jürgen for the seven years he's coached me and if there was any involvement it would be the system and not the man himself to blame.

"Jürgen's a coach not a medic."
Testing the bounds of reality.
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16 Jun 2013 09:07

that is daniel craig before he got on the roids right?ImageImage
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16 Jun 2013 09:11

DirtyDennis wrote:100% Top post Blackcat
USPS is a classic example....Mixed nationality team, doping provided by Spanish and Italians, managed by a Belgian , and paid for by US taxpayers :D

But yes, your salient point is that the mentality that drives these types of people does not recognise borders. Nationality is a red-herring in this respect.

Where it is salient is in respect of the attitude of national federations (I'm thinking here of the frankly risible attempt by the Spanish to torpedo Contador's drug positive, with the help of the Spanish prime minister), and also the law..Some countries have been quicker than others to criminalise doping.

Quite where the UK stands in this is interesting. The British Olympic committee did their utmost to prevent convicted dopers like Millar representing the country in the Olympics, but of course once the legal impediment was removed Team GB welcomed him with open arms


ok, spanish gov't dont want it prosecuted. i think australia does better pr and marketing the soccor mom anti doping. but the aphorism about inquiries stands true. never instigate an inquiry unless you know the finding before it is underway. the US can do their Fed Drug and Alcohol grand jury, but still put a kibosh on it. Australia can talk hifalutin rhetoric, but that is all it is, rhetoric.

atleast you know where you stand with the spaniards.
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16 Jun 2013 09:14

O'Grady, clean? Mwahahaha.
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16 Jun 2013 09:26

hrotha wrote:O'Grady, clean? Mwahahaha.


I was being sarcastic ;)
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