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Brits don't dope?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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06 Mar 2017 22:59

To the rescue, the press release just oozes with understanding and resolve:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/other/julie-harrington-accepts-task-of-restoring-faith-in-british-cycling/ar-AAnTRa0

"....the nation's elite riders which she admits may have been tarnished by ongoing doping investigations."

There is a raging fire going on. Wiggo has gone to ground citing a broken leg (that requires no plaster !) for getting himself out of a celebrity game show and out of the public eye, the whole squad are silent - on everything - only Adam Duggleby broke ranks and supported Cooke's criticsm of Sir Brad. Just what evidence exists for "may" finding its way in there ?

"Making sure the reputation of our athletes is clean and that they are seen to be achieving success in the right way is paramount, and we owe that to our athletes.


Perception trumps fact - go for it girl - SDB, Fran and Michele are backing you all the way. It's a circus with magic tricks and illusions. Concentrate on sight lines, don't let anyone sit where they can see behind the curtain.

"We are committed to making sure that our athletes are able to represent themselves strongly in that way.

"I'm thrilled to be taking the lead. I think it's an organisation that is ready for a new chapter in its history and I'm hoping to bring a mix of commercial and leadership skills to get the whole organisation ready for that next chapter."

New chapter - yeah - time to turn the page and see what fiction is on the next. Can't wait. How about dropping the BS and doing a bit of reality. "I am looking forward to gaining an understanding of the scope and breadth of the problems that beset this organisation. We owe it to the membership and the public who invest over £30million, the largest sum of any sport in the UK let me remind everyone, in British Cycling each Olympic cycle. We owe it to them to ensure that money is spent wisely and productively on what it is meant to be spent on and not buying steroids to help SDB deal with his weight issues or letting staff who have BC cars and fuel cards, claim for rail-tickets to and from Manchester. And I look forward to the "pharmacy" being closed down with perhaps Asprin being the limit of what the public fund our sports-stars without the most stringent checks and balances.
Freddythefrog
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Re: Re:

06 Mar 2017 23:19

Benotti69 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
samhocking wrote:Remember Fancy Bears only released the final TUE document. There's a stack of paperwork, online forms and various other stuff associated with each TUE both electronically and physically held with WADA and on ADAMS


The TUEs could well be legitimate. The form states that the documents to back it up exist. That was for 3 (maybe 4?) doses though, not 70.


Wiggins doesn't have asthma. So not legit. If it was all above baord Wiggins would be giving interviews left right and centre with his medical records from pre racing showing he had asthma. Wiggins went into hiding and then gave an interview to Andrew Marr who knows little about cycling. If Wiggins/Sky were above boars they would have picked there biggest critic to give an interview too.

Kenacort is not a legitimate treatment of asthma or allergies, depending on which story Sky roll out.


all of the athletes at the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport) have asthma and get salbutemol, so, I defend Sir Brad's right to take salbutamol too, whichever way you spell it. He can have a half dose, free of charge, cos his dad was Australian. that is fair.

Brad's lung which is Australian needed the salbutamol. So he should get a pass from UKada.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
User avatar blackcat
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Re: Re:

07 Mar 2017 11:15

Benotti69 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
samhocking wrote:Remember Fancy Bears only released the final TUE document. There's a stack of paperwork, online forms and various other stuff associated with each TUE both electronically and physically held with WADA and on ADAMS


The TUEs could well be legitimate. The form states that the documents to back it up exist. That was for 3 (maybe 4?) doses though, not 70.


Wiggins doesn't have asthma. So not legit. If it was all above baord Wiggins would be giving interviews left right and centre with his medical records from pre racing showing he had asthma. Wiggins went into hiding and then gave an interview to Andrew Marr who knows little about cycling. If Wiggins/Sky were above boars they would have picked there biggest critic to give an interview too.

Kenacort is not a legitimate treatment of asthma or allergies, depending on which story Sky roll out.


Triamcinolone is a legitimate treatment for both asthma and allergies in certain circumstances. Wiggins TUEs here:

https://fancybear.net/pages/2.html

IF the information in them is correct then the TUEs could well be legitimate. I'm making no claims that the information is correct here, I'm just saying that, for a generic rider suffering from severe allergies, triamcinolone could be the right treatment. Ordering 70 vials on the basis of 1 TUE is not legitimate.

blackcat wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
samhocking wrote:Remember Fancy Bears only released the final TUE document. There's a stack of paperwork, online forms and various other stuff associated with each TUE both electronically and physically held with WADA and on ADAMS


The TUEs could well be legitimate. The form states that the documents to back it up exist. That was for 3 (maybe 4?) doses though, not 70.


TUEs and legitimacy is a logical fallacy imo


It is the main issue with the TUE as it stands. Determining if it is also performance enhancing is very difficult in some case. In some, not so much...
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

07 Mar 2017 11:49

Freddythefrog wrote:To the rescue, the press release just oozes with understanding and resolve:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/other/julie-harrington-accepts-task-of-restoring-faith-in-british-cycling/ar-AAnTRa0

"....the nation's elite riders which she admits may have been tarnished by ongoing doping investigations."

There is a raging fire going on. Wiggo has gone to ground citing a broken leg (that requires no plaster !) for getting himself out of a celebrity game show and out of the public eye, the whole squad are silent - on everything - only Adam Duggleby broke ranks and supported Cooke's criticsm of Sir Brad. Just what evidence exists for "may" finding its way in there ?

"Making sure the reputation of our athletes is clean and that they are seen to be achieving success in the right way is paramount, and we owe that to our athletes.


Perception trumps fact - go for it girl - SDB, Fran and Michele are backing you all the way. It's a circus with magic tricks and illusions. Concentrate on sight lines, don't let anyone sit where they can see behind the curtain.

"We are committed to making sure that our athletes are able to represent themselves strongly in that way.

"I'm thrilled to be taking the lead. I think it's an organisation that is ready for a new chapter in its history and I'm hoping to bring a mix of commercial and leadership skills to get the whole organisation ready for that next chapter."

New chapter - yeah - time to turn the page and see what fiction is on the next. Can't wait. How about dropping the BS and doing a bit of reality. "I am looking forward to gaining an understanding of the scope and breadth of the problems that beset this organisation. We owe it to the membership and the public who invest over £30million, the largest sum of any sport in the UK let me remind everyone, in British Cycling each Olympic cycle. We owe it to them to ensure that money is spent wisely and productively on what it is meant to be spent on and not buying steroids to help SDB deal with his weight issues or letting staff who have BC cars and fuel cards, claim for rail-tickets to and from Manchester. And I look forward to the "pharmacy" being closed down with perhaps Asprin being the limit of what the public fund our sports-stars without the most stringent checks and balances.


Thos comments from Harrington are utterly depressing. I wonder who selects these people. It appears we have another incumbent for whom perception is more important than reality. A continuation of Sky's mantra from the get go. Kerrison said as much in the interview a few years back at 5:00 in the video below. Kerrsion was another shifty individual who knew the reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVROhTHxWP8
ontheroad
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Re: Re:

07 Mar 2017 14:04

ontheroad wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:To the rescue, the press release just oozes with understanding and resolve:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/other/julie-harrington-accepts-task-of-restoring-faith-in-british-cycling/ar-AAnTRa0

"....the nation's elite riders which she admits may have been tarnished by ongoing doping investigations."

There is a raging fire going on. Wiggo has gone to ground citing a broken leg (that requires no plaster !) for getting himself out of a celebrity game show and out of the public eye, the whole squad are silent - on everything - only Adam Duggleby broke ranks and supported Cooke's criticsm of Sir Brad. Just what evidence exists for "may" finding its way in there ?

"Making sure the reputation of our athletes is clean and that they are seen to be achieving success in the right way is paramount, and we owe that to our athletes.


Perception trumps fact - go for it girl - SDB, Fran and Michele are backing you all the way. It's a circus with magic tricks and illusions. Concentrate on sight lines, don't let anyone sit where they can see behind the curtain.

"We are committed to making sure that our athletes are able to represent themselves strongly in that way.

"I'm thrilled to be taking the lead. I think it's an organisation that is ready for a new chapter in its history and I'm hoping to bring a mix of commercial and leadership skills to get the whole organisation ready for that next chapter."

New chapter - yeah - time to turn the page and see what fiction is on the next. Can't wait. How about dropping the BS and doing a bit of reality. "I am looking forward to gaining an understanding of the scope and breadth of the problems that beset this organisation. We owe it to the membership and the public who invest over £30million, the largest sum of any sport in the UK let me remind everyone, in British Cycling each Olympic cycle. We owe it to them to ensure that money is spent wisely and productively on what it is meant to be spent on and not buying steroids to help SDB deal with his weight issues or letting staff who have BC cars and fuel cards, claim for rail-tickets to and from Manchester. And I look forward to the "pharmacy" being closed down with perhaps Asprin being the limit of what the public fund our sports-stars without the most stringent checks and balances.


Thos comments from Harrington are utterly depressing. I wonder who selects these people. It appears we have another incumbent for whom perception is more important than reality. A continuation of Sky's mantra from the get go. Kerrison said as much in the interview a few years back at 5:00 in the video below. Kerrsion was another shifty individual who knew the reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVROhTHxWP8

it is merely an evolution of Mark McKinnon and Public Strategies and Armstrong, where they believe PR and communications strategy and operations strategy dictates reality.*

It is arguable, the strategy of McKinnon and Armstrong as a brand, and a brand of cancer, was more important than his brand of cycling, on asphalt, hotpour, tarmac and lime, tarmac and line. cycling and July was a given, Nike shilling widgets like Jordan basketball shoes was a given, but the underlying brand that took him to the Whitehouse and on Today with Katie Couric, on Oprah, on Lateshow with Letterman and Leno, it was not cycling. Lemond never had cut-thru and traction. Lemond was not a baseballer or footballer. Americans dont understand cycling. cancer was the conduit and brand. McKinnon axiomatically understood this. Stapleton saw his apotheosis. Wonderboy was cancer jesus. And Americans understand religion, dont believe the separation of state hogwash.

*they are sportsmen/women, and are lured by the groupthink. What they cannot see is their Icarus project or attempt to scale heights and win a prize that necessitates them on an industrial scale doping and doping logistics program, and if they are successful at backing up and repeating, and creating a franchise, the media spotlight will uncover the less palatable aspects of this achievement. It is a paradox, to succeed again and again, to sell this success in the media, will also reveal the operation behind the success. And the public will not deify you then, it will crucify you.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
User avatar blackcat
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Re: Re:

07 Mar 2017 14:19

King Boonen wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
samhocking wrote:Remember Fancy Bears only released the final TUE document. There's a stack of paperwork, online forms and various other stuff associated with each TUE both electronically and physically held with WADA and on ADAMS


The TUEs could well be legitimate. The form states that the documents to back it up exist. That was for 3 (maybe 4?) doses though, not 70.


Wiggins doesn't have asthma. So not legit. If it was all above baord Wiggins would be giving interviews left right and centre with his medical records from pre racing showing he had asthma. Wiggins went into hiding and then gave an interview to Andrew Marr who knows little about cycling. If Wiggins/Sky were above boars they would have picked there biggest critic to give an interview too.

Kenacort is not a legitimate treatment of asthma or allergies, depending on which story Sky roll out.


Triamcinolone is a legitimate treatment for both asthma and allergies in certain circumstances. Wiggins TUEs here:

https://fancybear.net/pages/2.html

IF the information in them is correct then the TUEs could well be legitimate. I'm making no claims that the information is correct here, I'm just saying that, for a generic rider suffering from severe allergies, triamcinolone could be the right treatment. Ordering 70 vials on the basis of 1 TUE is not legitimate.

blackcat wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
samhocking wrote:Remember Fancy Bears only released the final TUE document. There's a stack of paperwork, online forms and various other stuff associated with each TUE both electronically and physically held with WADA and on ADAMS


The TUEs could well be legitimate. The form states that the documents to back it up exist. That was for 3 (maybe 4?) doses though, not 70.


TUEs and legitimacy is a logical fallacy imo


It is the main issue with the TUE as it stands. Determining if it is also performance enhancing is very difficult in some case. In some, not so much...


NHS will not prescribe what Wiggins was on. I think that in itself tells us that Wiggins is not asthmatic.

Well this is easy to resolve, a la Calum Skinner. Release medical history showing asthma and pollen allergies from prior to professional cycling.

See Wiggins doesn't have asthma! So TUEs not legit. Kenacort not legit = doping. A blind person can see this at this stage.

Also Wiggins hiding from press = guilty.

It is easy to get TUEs in cycling when the Dr Leinders and his good friend at the UCI Dr Zorzoli are sorting it.

Another good sign that Wiggins doped. No running to his lawyers for libelling him a doper. Now i know the media have written very carefully constructed articles but if Wiggins was clean he would be lawyered up as the articles leave no one in any doubt that Wiggins was not playing fair.

There is also no point in looking for the gun that fired the bullet because that rarely turns up in pro sport. Only when an athlete pi$$es off someone big time does the gun get found.Plenty of examples of that. Look at Cookson, a rider is being accused of illegally taking corticosteroids to win he biggest race of the season and he is hiding out in the Middle-East and ignoring requests for interviews. Guy was the head of BC in 2012.

As for performance enhancing! Jeez so many riders were on it, ask Rasmussen, Jaksche et al!!!!
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

07 Mar 2017 15:15

Benotti69 wrote:

Also Wiggins hiding from press = guilty.
totalitarian state. Wiggins just needs an Alistair Campbell in his corner, and to pop a few xannies before the press doorstop him. I hope Wiggins gutses[sic] this one out. But like has been said before, he will likely get into the ales before lunch, and send Kath out to face the press.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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Re: Re:

07 Mar 2017 17:05

blackcat wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:

Also Wiggins hiding from press = guilty.
totalitarian state. Wiggins just needs an Alistair Campbell in his corner, and to pop a few xannies before the press doorstop him. I hope Wiggins gutses[sic] this one out. But like has been said before, he will likely get into the ales before lunch, and send Kath out to face the press.


Hoping that Bradley doesn't end up like his late Dad Gary.
yaco
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Re: Re:

07 Mar 2017 19:44

yaco wrote:
blackcat wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:

Also Wiggins hiding from press = guilty.
totalitarian state. Wiggins just needs an Alistair Campbell in his corner, and to pop a few xannies before the press doorstop him. I hope Wiggins gutses[sic] this one out. But like has been said before, he will likely get into the ales before lunch, and send Kath out to face the press.


Hoping that Bradley doesn't end up like his late Dad Gary.


Given that history in cycling seems to be stuck in a repititive 'cycle' dont hope too much.
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

08 Mar 2017 17:47

Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:
blackcat wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:

Also Wiggins hiding from press = guilty.
totalitarian state. Wiggins just needs an Alistair Campbell in his corner, and to pop a few xannies before the press doorstop him. I hope Wiggins gutses[sic] this one out. But like has been said before, he will likely get into the ales before lunch, and send Kath out to face the press.


Hoping that Bradley doesn't end up like his late Dad Gary.


Given that history in cycling seems to be stuck in a repititive 'cycle' dont hope too much.


You need to be aware of the circumstances of Gary Wiggin's death.
yaco
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Re: Re:

08 Mar 2017 17:54

yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:
blackcat wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:

Also Wiggins hiding from press = guilty.
totalitarian state. Wiggins just needs an Alistair Campbell in his corner, and to pop a few xannies before the press doorstop him. I hope Wiggins gutses[sic] this one out. But like has been said before, he will likely get into the ales before lunch, and send Kath out to face the press.


Hoping that Bradley doesn't end up like his late Dad Gary.


Given that history in cycling seems to be stuck in a repititive 'cycle' dont hope too much.


You need to be aware of the circumstances of Gary Wiggin's death.


not the place for it. but the police did not make a finding did not they. GW still unfortunate and could not assimilate to regular life, a leitmotif of professional sportsmen in every sport so Benotti is kinda right.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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Re: Re:

08 Mar 2017 18:08

blackcat wrote:
ontheroad wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:To the rescue, the press release just oozes with understanding and resolve:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/other/julie-harrington-accepts-task-of-restoring-faith-in-british-cycling/ar-AAnTRa0

"....the nation's elite riders which she admits may have been tarnished by ongoing doping investigations."

There is a raging fire going on. Wiggo has gone to ground citing a broken leg (that requires no plaster !) for getting himself out of a celebrity game show and out of the public eye, the whole squad are silent - on everything - only Adam Duggleby broke ranks and supported Cooke's criticsm of Sir Brad. Just what evidence exists for "may" finding its way in there ?

"Making sure the reputation of our athletes is clean and that they are seen to be achieving success in the right way is paramount, and we owe that to our athletes.


Perception trumps fact - go for it girl - SDB, Fran and Michele are backing you all the way. It's a circus with magic tricks and illusions. Concentrate on sight lines, don't let anyone sit where they can see behind the curtain.

"We are committed to making sure that our athletes are able to represent themselves strongly in that way.

"I'm thrilled to be taking the lead. I think it's an organisation that is ready for a new chapter in its history and I'm hoping to bring a mix of commercial and leadership skills to get the whole organisation ready for that next chapter."

New chapter - yeah - time to turn the page and see what fiction is on the next. Can't wait. How about dropping the BS and doing a bit of reality. "I am looking forward to gaining an understanding of the scope and breadth of the problems that beset this organisation. We owe it to the membership and the public who invest over £30million, the largest sum of any sport in the UK let me remind everyone, in British Cycling each Olympic cycle. We owe it to them to ensure that money is spent wisely and productively on what it is meant to be spent on and not buying steroids to help SDB deal with his weight issues or letting staff who have BC cars and fuel cards, claim for rail-tickets to and from Manchester. And I look forward to the "pharmacy" being closed down with perhaps Asprin being the limit of what the public fund our sports-stars without the most stringent checks and balances.


Thos comments from Harrington are utterly depressing. I wonder who selects these people. It appears we have another incumbent for whom perception is more important than reality. A continuation of Sky's mantra from the get go. Kerrison said as much in the interview a few years back at 5:00 in the video below. Kerrsion was another shifty individual who knew the reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVROhTHxWP8

it is merely an evolution of Mark McKinnon and Public Strategies and Armstrong, where they believe PR and communications strategy and operations strategy dictates reality.*

It is arguable, the strategy of McKinnon and Armstrong as a brand, and a brand of cancer, was more important than his brand of cycling, on asphalt, hotpour, tarmac and lime, tarmac and line. cycling and July was a given, Nike shilling widgets like Jordan basketball shoes was a given, but the underlying brand that took him to the Whitehouse and on Today with Katie Couric, on Oprah, on Lateshow with Letterman and Leno, it was not cycling. Lemond never had cut-thru and traction. Lemond was not a baseballer or footballer. Americans dont understand cycling. cancer was the conduit and brand. McKinnon axiomatically understood this. Stapleton saw his apotheosis. Wonderboy was cancer jesus. And Americans understand religion, dont believe the separation of state hogwash.

*they are sportsmen/women, and are lured by the groupthink. What they cannot see is their Icarus project or attempt to scale heights and win a prize that necessitates them on an industrial scale doping and doping logistics program, and if they are successful at backing up and repeating, and creating a franchise, the media spotlight will uncover the less palatable aspects of this achievement. It is a paradox, to succeed again and again, to sell this success in the media, will also reveal the operation behind the success. And the public will not deify you then, it will crucify you.


Excellent analysis/summation, especially the Icarus reference.
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20 Mar 2017 09:12

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_five_live

An hours chat about doing in amateur sport in the UK. Wonder what this is going to be like...
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 10:09

King Boonen wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_five_live

An hours chat about doing in amateur sport in the UK. Wonder what this is going to be like...


This was the original story - http://www.bbc.com/sport/38884801 about amateurs doping.

(just in time for Mr Froome's return to racing :D )
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 10:34

Robert5091 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_five_live

An hours chat about doing in amateur sport in the UK. Wonder what this is going to be like...


This was the original story - http://www.bbc.com/sport/38884801 about amateurs doping.

(just in time for Mr Froome's return to racing :D )


I was listening but got distracted. Seemed every call I did hear was basically saying doping if rife in amateur sport and there was a broad range of sports represented. Will have a look at that link at lunchtime.
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User avatar King Boonen
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20 Mar 2017 12:37

Funny how nearly 50% of amateurs think PEDs are "easy to get hold of" yet (in relative terms) so few elite sportspeople ever test positive.....
Cake
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20 Mar 2017 13:16

Also funny how the second highest group who answered "agree" to "PEDs are easily available amongst sports pros" was..... amateur Tennis players!

But but! There's no PEDs in pro Tennis so how can this be?! Must just be those naughty amateurs ruining the pros' good name.
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 13:54

Cake wrote:Funny how nearly 50% of amateurs think PEDs are "easy to get hold of" yet (in relative terms) so few elite sportspeople ever test positive.....

Exactly. And then there are those that seem to think that once they reach elite level they are clean.
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Re: Brits don't dope?

20 Mar 2017 22:40

Thought this was interesting coming from UKAD,
"Drug use at every level of sport is "fast becoming a crisis" according to UK Anti-Doping"
Every level? Even elite boys and girls? No, never! :D
Kirby, the reason the mute button was invented! :)
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Re: Brits don't dope?

23 Mar 2017 02:37

BullsFan22
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