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Brits don't dope?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

26 Jan 2017 13:45

sniper wrote:@craigee: Enough rewards in track cycling through sponsoring and lucrative post-carreer gigs if you land a medal and/or become friendly with the people in power at BC.
Look at Hayles, Hoy, etc. Doping pays, also in track.


I guess so with British cycling but not so career boosting for track riders in many other countries.
Craigee
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Re:

26 Jan 2017 13:58

Craigee wrote:King Boonen, you are shifting the goal posts. You compared all the bro's down at the Manchester velodrome in British cycling with that of complete strangers who happen to be of the same religion or skin colour of which there are massive populations all across the world. It was a poor argument to use.

On your latest point. Lord help us if one or more actually spoke up against Wiggins. Would be a breath of fresh air if they did. But yes you do make a point regards judgement if they sided with him. In saying that though, it simply isn't a fact yet that he ever doped so why wouldn't they support him? Their silence is still interesting.


I'm not shifting the goalposts. I'm pretty sure Armitstead isn't a bro and you made the assumption I was talking about people spread across the globe. You are trying to define the parameters of my argument, you should really just ask if you want specifics, after all it is a discussion forum, and in future I'll try and be more specific.

I'm sure they all know what will happen if they speak up to support him, that's reason enough to keep out of it. There also seems to be an assumption that sports people have direct access to media outlets and dictate when they comment. While they could no doubt try and set up interviews etc. what usually happens is they comment when asked. It is very possible that no one has bothered to ask others what they think, I don't think I've read anywhere that Hoy has refused to comment on the situation for example.

It is interesting, it's more interesting that the TP squad hasn't come out in his defence though (at least not that I've seen). I have no idea how much interaction Hoy and Armitstead would have had with Wiggins beyond social, Boardman has left BC and was on the equipment side and as far as I'm aware Millar has pretty much nothing to do with BC or Wiggins. It's highly likely that they don't really know anything about the Wiggins situation. They are all much more likely to know about the sexist nature of BC.
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Re:

26 Jan 2017 14:01

sniper wrote:@craigee: Enough rewards in track cycling through sponsoring and lucrative post-carreer gigs if you land a medal and/or become friendly with the people in power at BC.
Look at Hayles, Hoy, etc. Doping pays, also in track.


It takes a lot more than landing a medal, otherwise Queally, MacLean, Manning, Newton, Clay, Edgar, Burke and so on would be much better known.
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26 Jan 2017 14:13

sure, but i don't think that for any of those guys landing a medal has been detrimental to their wallet.
it's not necessarily about being well known.
it's about paying the rent.
For some there are lucrative rewards, for others slightly less lucrative, but still enough to make it worthwhile to dope.

Look at Queally. No, didn't get 'famous'. But he did get plenty of funding opportunities after Sydney 2000.
Also landed his name in the Cycling Hall of Fame.

That's not saying they're all dopers per se.
Just saying that imo there is no reason to assume they're clean just because the rewards are less than on the road.

That said, altoegtehr I can certainly go with Craigee's point that there'll likely be less rampant doping in track as a whole than in road as a whole. But at the top level of track cycling you can be sure doping is prevalent as are motors, btw.
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26 Jan 2017 15:37

KB is spot on with his post - There is no need for every athlete to pass public comments on issues whether they are big or small.
yaco
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26 Jan 2017 15:45

again, it's not about what they "need" to say.
It's about what one can reasonably expect them to say if they were genuinely anti-doping.
their silence doesn't prove anything, but its more consistent with them being pro-doping than with them being anti-doping.
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Re:

26 Jan 2017 16:01

sniper wrote:again, it's not about what they "need" to say.
It's about what one can reasonably expect them to say if they were genuinely anti-doping.
their silence doesn't prove anything, but its more consistent with them being pro-doping than with them being anti-doping.


Nah - Readers of papers and the like don't want their papers filled with athletes repeating ' I am Anti-Doping ' - And media companies are trying to make a dollar so print newsworthy articles - Though this can be debated.
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Re:

26 Jan 2017 17:56

yaco wrote:KB is spot on with his post - There is no need for every athlete to pass public comments on issues whether they are big or small.


Not every athlete but those with influence, ie the 4 named.

Every athlete passes comment on the most mundane aspects of their lives via social media, if they had a vested interest in fairplay and clean sport i would expect them to praise Nicole Cooke. But if they are part of the problems she has highlighted I expect their silence. Guess what we got?
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Re: Re:

26 Jan 2017 18:00

King Boonen wrote:
Craigee wrote:King Boonen, you are shifting the goal posts. You compared all the bro's down at the Manchester velodrome in British cycling with that of complete strangers who happen to be of the same religion or skin colour of which there are massive populations all across the world. It was a poor argument to use.

On your latest point. Lord help us if one or more actually spoke up against Wiggins. Would be a breath of fresh air if they did. But yes you do make a point regards judgement if they sided with him. In saying that though, it simply isn't a fact yet that he ever doped so why wouldn't they support him? Their silence is still interesting.


I'm not shifting the goalposts. I'm pretty sure Armitstead isn't a bro and you made the assumption I was talking about people spread across the globe. You are trying to define the parameters of my argument, you should really just ask if you want specifics, after all it is a discussion forum, and in future I'll try and be more specific.

I'm sure they all know what will happen if they speak up to support him, that's reason enough to keep out of it. There also seems to be an assumption that sports people have direct access to media outlets and dictate when they comment. While they could no doubt try and set up interviews etc. what usually happens is they comment when asked. It is very possible that no one has bothered to ask others what they think, I don't think I've read anywhere that Hoy has refused to comment on the situation for example.

It is interesting, it's more interesting that the TP squad hasn't come out in his defence though (at least not that I've seen). I have no idea how much interaction Hoy and Armitstead would have had with Wiggins beyond social, Boardman has left BC and was on the equipment side and as far as I'm aware Millar has pretty much nothing to do with BC or Wiggins. It's highly likely that they don't really know anything about the Wiggins situation. They are all much more likely to know about the sexist nature of BC.


Nicole Cooke highlighted much more than the Wiggins fiasco.

Boardman, eg, aint going to spit in the soup now that his bikes are being ridden by a pro team.

Hoy is angling to go the same route of Boardman in building a bike brand. Aint going to spit in the soup now is he.

If people are not going to spit int he soup than they are part of the problem as the situation never changes.
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Re: Re:

26 Jan 2017 18:03

Craigee wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:No really exaggerating, just highlighting a point. I could ask why every cyclist in the world doesn't protest when one is run over as well. Or why every football player doesn't speak out about head injuries, or why every college athlete doesn't complain about being used.

There is no requirement for people to speak out. It's fantastic that some people do but that shouldn't be used to shame others into doing it.

Your assumption that everyone dopes makes the rest of this discussion pointless.


Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar are not everyday sports people.

No requirement to speak? I disagree. If you are part of the sport and you open your mouth to talk about your sport and they all do then you have to talk about the bad and the good and Nicole Cooke's statement is a huge moment in Brit Cycling and they should back her if they want to improve the sport for clean athletes or be castigated as part of the problem for their silence.

I can not understand why or how any athlete could compete in the cesspit of modern sport and remain clean. It would require an extremely stupid person to do that. To get to the level of professional sport takes ego, dedication and talent. To arrive at the top find out that you cannot be competitive without juicing and to continue is the mentality of the idiot.
I also dont believe teams want clean riders. They cant afford to have people not doping.


Do you believe this goes for track cycling as well? No real money in it so is there a good chance that there is very little doping on the track? Were the huge PBs by all the Brits in Rio legit in your opinion? Was it all down to their infamous marginal gains? Lots of questions I know.


No, i dont believe that the BC Track was achieved 'legally'. Money is not the reason athletes dope. Not much money in weightlifting, javelin, hammer etc but athletes still dope.

The sweeping success of GB in track is not down to marginal gains. It is doping or motors. Their use of frames and wheels in London'12 was weird and points towards motors, in my humble opinion.
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26 Jan 2017 19:15

That, together with Salzwedel introducing Cervelo makes motors a plausibility. Loughborough has all the means to produce the most sophisticated. For BC track my guess is we're looking at downtube (2008) and rimmotors (2012 and beyond).
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Re: Brits don't dope?

26 Jan 2017 20:19

BC turned up the power a bit too much on Cramptons rim motor.
Image
samhocking
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26 Jan 2017 21:32

You would think that the track team that patented "marginal gains" would be able to glue on a tubular correctly...

Edit: on second glance, that looks like the rim has pulled away from the rest of the wheel.
Last edited by 42x16ss on 27 Jan 2017 01:43, edited 1 time in total.
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26 Jan 2017 22:05

Interesting about motors as this was one of the theories floating around the place (Rio velodrome) when they were smashing all their PBs as well as the opposition. But surely the UCI checked for them in Rio?
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26 Jan 2017 22:09

Tub is still glued to the rim, the wheel glue failed. It was the French getting their own back via Mavic after Brailsford saying BC were using extra round wheels and why they won lol!
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30 Jan 2017 13:27

Any word on how the UKAD investigation is going or is it going to linger on for months on end?
ontheroad
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30 Jan 2017 13:57

Sapstead is going before the commons select committee on Feb 22nd.

One hopes it will be wrapped up by then.
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Re: Re:

30 Jan 2017 15:54

Craigee wrote:
sniper wrote:@craigee: Enough rewards in track cycling through sponsoring and lucrative post-carreer gigs if you land a medal and/or become friendly with the people in power at BC.
Look at Hayles, Hoy, etc. Doping pays, also in track.


I guess so with British cycling but not so career boosting for track riders in many other countries.



Unfortunately it is not so simple.
Amateurs dope, and a lot of them at that. The reasons have more to do with self esteem and achievement that financial rewards.
To get to the top in any sport takes a huge internal belief and a dedication to something that is inconceivable to most people.
The idea that you would do so much and then throw it all away because of a small improvement or a small change to get up to the rest of the field as you try to make it from the good group to the Olympic group.
These people have already justified so many sacrifices and friends and relatives to get to where they are. It is really no small amount of extra justification to go over the line to doping.
Especially when "Everyone is doing it" and you know many are making huge living out of it that you will never compete with unless you do.
So it is not all about the money there are many other factors at play in the psychology of a top athlete.
Some to do with self esteem
some to do with trying to rationalise all the sacrifice that has gone before.
some to do with money.
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24 Feb 2017 16:07

He's only a masters rider and it's only old school steroids, but any doping cases now, with the spotlight on BC, well that's just embarrassing
http://uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/17/63/88/20170220ProvisionalSuspensionEN_English.pdf
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