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Brits don't dope?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Tonton, King Boonen, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky

Re: Re:

04 Jan 2018 19:39

thehog wrote:
macbindle wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:If I were called on to do an anti-doping test and some of the water offered to me looked like it might have been tampered with I think I would also refuse to do it. It's fairy reasonable to assume that, if you believe someone might have tampered with one part of the testing procedure, then you would believe that they would tamper with another part post sampling.

I don't think that's what happened. I think he probably knew he would test positive and found an easy way out. I would guess that it's highly likely he knew that bottles of water are previously opened a lot of the time (maybe multiple tests in a day) and it was a good get out of jail free clause.

In the end the correct verdict has come out of it. The anti-doping agencies' failure is their fault.


Yes, they tend to fail at their job quite a lot. Amazing that. They should be working in PR....oh wait......


Chronically underfunded, inevitably playing catchup with doping pharma and techniques. I'm sure that there are many in anti-doping who try to do a good job but in essence you are right in that it amounts to a PR effort as much as anything.


I disagree, anti-doping isn’t really a tool to stop doping but to contain doping enough so there is no scandal. Bio passport etc. are excellent tools to warn athletes to taper back without the need for suspension or public notice.


I agree with that in so far as anti-doping prevents a free for all, athletes have to take care in order not to get caught. However, there have been scandals, plenty of them. Just look at who lines up for 100m. Look at Meldonium Maria, and Clentador (yes, I know it looks like a cover-up was attempted) And now Froome. A scandal. Another possible attempted cover up, I know.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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08 Jan 2018 12:28

Who would have thought it? The Brits were the first to dope and die from doping in the sport we all love here on this forum, Cycling.


1897[edit]
Choppy Warburton of Haslingden, England died aged 52. He was described by the Lancashire Family History Society:

“ "Choppy has been firmly identified as the instigator of drug-taking in the sport [cycling] in the 19th century."[11] ”

Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael.[
Craigee
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Re:

08 Jan 2018 13:00

Mere conjecture.

Craigee wrote:Who would have thought it? The Brits were the first to dope and die from doping in the sport we all love here on this forum, Cycling.


1897[edit]
Choppy Warburton of Haslingden, England died aged 52. He was described by the Lancashire Family History Society:

“ "Choppy has been firmly identified as the instigator of drug-taking in the sport [cycling] in the 19th century."[11] ”

Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael.[
Choppy Warburton
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 13:17

Choppy Warburton wrote:Mere conjecture.

Craigee wrote:Who would have thought it? The Brits were the first to dope and die from doping in the sport we all love here on this forum, Cycling.


1897[edit]
Choppy Warburton of Haslingden, England died aged 52. He was described by the Lancashire Family History Society:

“ "Choppy has been firmly identified as the instigator of drug-taking in the sport [cycling] in the 19th century."[11] ”

Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael.[


Ha Ha Ha
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 14:40

Choppy Warburton wrote:Mere conjecture.

Craigee wrote:Who would have thought it? The Brits were the first to dope and die from doping in the sport we all love here on this forum, Cycling.


1897[edit]
Choppy Warburton of Haslingden, England died aged 52. He was described by the Lancashire Family History Society:

“ "Choppy has been firmly identified as the instigator of drug-taking in the sport [cycling] in the 19th century."[11] ”

Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael.[


That you are still here with us Choppy, which i am glad, kind of proves that you doped! :D
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Re:

08 Jan 2018 15:14

Craigee wrote:Who would have thought it? The Brits were the first to dope and die from doping in the sport we all love here on this forum, Cycling.


1897[edit]
Choppy Warburton of Haslingden, England died aged 52. He was described by the Lancashire Family History Society:

“ "Choppy has been firmly identified as the instigator of drug-taking in the sport [cycling] in the 19th century."[11] ”

Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael.[
This is bullshit...written by people who need a demon, not by people who've read the history.
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 15:49

fmk_RoI wrote:
Craigee wrote:Who would have thought it? The Brits were the first to dope and die from doping in the sport we all love here on this forum, Cycling.


1897[edit]
Choppy Warburton of Haslingden, England died aged 52. He was described by the Lancashire Family History Society:

“ "Choppy has been firmly identified as the instigator of drug-taking in the sport [cycling] in the 19th century."[11] ”

Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael.[
This is bullshit...written by people who need a demon, not by people who've read the history.

So your new book then? ;)
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 20:01

veganrob wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
Craigee wrote:Who would have thought it? The Brits were the first to dope and die from doping in the sport we all love here on this forum, Cycling.


1897[edit]
Choppy Warburton of Haslingden, England died aged 52. He was described by the Lancashire Family History Society:

“ "Choppy has been firmly identified as the instigator of drug-taking in the sport [cycling] in the 19th century."[11] ”

Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael.[
This is bullshit...written by people who need a demon, not by people who've read the history.

So your new book then? ;)
It's already a book https://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/8/9/2352921/Choppy-Warburton
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08 Jan 2018 20:09

User avatar fmk_RoI
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08 Jan 2018 20:15

User avatar fmk_RoI
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09 Jan 2018 14:21

Rudiger Rabenstein claims that Arthur Linton was "massively doped" for the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris.

Who was Rudiger Rabenstein?
Craigee
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Re:

09 Jan 2018 15:55

Craigee wrote:Rudiger Rabenstein claims that Arthur Linton was "massively doped" for the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris.

Who was Rudiger Rabenstein?
He was one of the idiots who helped popularise the Linton myth and the demonisation of Warburton that other idiots so happily repeat without checking, even today, 20 years later.
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10 Jan 2018 07:03

Middle class twits or village idiots? Strong language, something hit a raw nerve.
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Re:

10 Jan 2018 10:31

Random Direction wrote:Middle class twits or village idiots? Strong language, something hit a raw nerve.
It's odd, but the sort of people who blithely link intelligence and social class very often tend toward linking intelligence and race...
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10 Jan 2018 11:08

So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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Re:

10 Jan 2018 11:49

Netserk wrote:So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!


We are drifting off topic but in the UK the social class you are born into is the main selector for the social class you end up in. Intelligence has unfortunately little to do with it

By the age of 7 middle class kids are ahead of working class kids and posh kids are in private schools. It only gets worse after that. Tuition fees stop poor kids from going to higher education. The old school tie approach to recruitment, etc. Social mobility is a dying concept in the UK (maybe it's different in Denmark?)

This just one recent example (and btw Justine Greening was sacked in this week's govt reshuffle for failing to increase inequality by introducing more grammar schools and free schools)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42212270
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10 Jan 2018 11:50

Netserk wrote:So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!



As somebody who grew up in a culture who's social institutions were (still are, but maybe slightly less so) riven with class-based impediments...I can only sigh and laugh at your post, Netserk.

Curiously though, there is a tenuous connection with the notion that 'Brits don't dope'.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re: Re:

10 Jan 2018 13:21

fmk_RoI wrote:
Craigee wrote:Rudiger Rabenstein claims that Arthur Linton was "massively doped" for the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris.

Who was Rudiger Rabenstein?
He was one of the idiots who helped popularise the Linton myth and the demonisation of Warburton that other idiots so happily repeat without checking, even today, 20 years later.


Check? What? Something that no one can confirm or deny from over 100 years ago?

We have to choose which story to believe or choose to believe neither and stay neutral and going on the fact that you weren't around at the time of Choppy and Linton, I think that I can safely say that you have chosen your story.

Weird thing though, that anyone would make up such damning slander about one man and doping in the 1800s.

Is this true that he was banned from cycling?

"Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael"

And This?

"Jimmy Michael of Wales, world cycling champion, died aged 27, en voyage to New York City. The cause of death was noted as delirium tremens, probably brought on by drinking.[14] Michael was managed by Choppy Warburton,[4] whose success was questioned, with claims that he drugged his charges. Michael was reported to have taken a potion and within a few laps collapsed on the track, picked himself up and then in a daze, set off in the wrong direction.[5] Michael is said to have accused Warburton of "poisoning him", before he was taken to court for libel.
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Re: Re:

10 Jan 2018 14:05

Craigee wrote:Check? What? Something that no one can confirm or deny from over 100 years ago?
I would have thought that this was obvious - one starts with the original reporting. Especially if one is idiotic enough to claim the rider was massively doped. Of that there should be contemporary evidence.
Craigee wrote:We have to choose which story to believe or choose to believe neither and stay neutral and going on the fact that you weren't around at the time of Choppy and Linton, I think that I can safely say that you have chosen your story.
And I think we can all safely say that you are advocating relativism. Truth is not a personal choice.
Craigee wrote:Weird thing though, that anyone would make up such damning slander about one man and doping in the 1800s.
There is nothing weird about it. This was the second half of the 1990s. Anti-doping advocates were desperate for victims and villains through which they could advance an emotional argument.
Craigee wrote:Is this true that he was banned from cycling?

"Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael"
Read the linked articles above - he was banned for allegedly nobbling Michael, colluding with bookmakers and other financial malpractices.
Craigee wrote:And This?

"Jimmy Michael of Wales, world cycling champion, died aged 27, en voyage to New York City. The cause of death was noted as delirium tremens, probably brought on by drinking.[14] Michael was managed by Choppy Warburton,[4] whose success was questioned, with claims that he drugged his charges. Michael was reported to have taken a potion and within a few laps collapsed on the track, picked himself up and then in a daze, set off in the wrong direction.[5] Michael is said to have accused Warburton of "poisoning him", before he was taken to court for libel.
See above and read the linked articles. The potion that so impacted Michael is believed by some to have been administered by or at the behest of Warburton's managerial rival Tom Eck.
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Re: Re:

10 Jan 2018 14:12

Wiggo's Package wrote:
Netserk wrote:So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!


We are drifting off topic but in the UK the social class you are born into is the main selector for the social class you end up in. Intelligence has unfortunately little to do with it

By the age of 7 middle class kids are ahead of working class kids and posh kids are in private schools. It only gets worse after that. Tuition fees stop poor kids from going to higher education. The old school tie approach to recruitment, etc. Social mobility is a dying concept in the UK (maybe it's different in Denmark?)

This just one recent example (and btw Justine Greening was sacked in this week's govt reshuffle for failing to increase inequality by introducing more grammar schools and free schools)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42212270

I'm not suggesting that the correlation is 1:1, just simply that there is a link between the two. Even if your parents are more important than your own level of intelligence, there would still be a correlation as long as intelligent people are more likely to move up in social class and unintelligent people are more likely to move down, since intelligence is a heritable trait.

While Netherlanders in general are taller than Italians, there are still plenty of tall Italians. And obviously, your nationality doesn't change your height, so after you've met someone and they then tell what nationality they are, you'd have no reason to suddenly think they are taller than you had reason to before. It's just a link. Same thing with social class and intelligence (under the presumption that intelligence is a selector for social class). While it can tell a lot about populations, it can only do so to a lesser extent for individuals.

I think free higher education (you even get £630 a month after tax just for being a student, so that you don't have to have any savings or side job) goes some of the way to explain why the social mobility is higher in Denmark, although I think that too has decreased. Some of which can be explained by higher level of meritocracy and (average) intelligence differences between social classes having increased as result, afaik.
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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