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Brits don't dope?

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Re: Brits don't dope?

18 Dec 2017 16:55

ontheroad wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
ontheroad wrote:"It's the worst thing to be accused of as a man of my integrity given what I believe and what I've done to get to where I am today," Wiggins said while appearing on Sky Sports' Soccer AM.

"But fortunately there is an investigation under way and I can't say too much but that will run its course.

"Eventually I will get my say and there is a lot to say.

"It's going to shock a few people."




Almost 9 months on and Wiggins has yet to reveal any of these 'shocking' revelations.

The Select committee have allowed Freeman to wriggle away by pulling a fake sickie without any questioning. They done a good job initially but once parliament broke they have done nothing since.

Then UKAD have done what they always do.....nothing! The whole episode stinks to high heaven from start to finish. British cycling and Sky have played for time by dragging out the whole affair hoping that it will go away eventually yet fail to provide answers to simple questions. Froome will do the same, it's a tactic that has worked in the past.


The problem with the whole Jiffy Bag saga was that the burden of proof always lay with UKAD. I know its incredibly frustrating and looks as though UKAD are completely ineffective, but really its the same as any other case, without proof and no matter how ridiculous the excuses sound, any attempt at legal sanction is almost doomed to fail. They know that, and in the absence of such proof it would be a foolish waste of resource to keep pursuing it.

But don't worry, Sky may have got a legal free pass on this, but that doesn't mean they didn't sustain serious damage as a result of the investigation. Everyone saw through their excuses, no one believed them, so the damage to their reputation is enormous. To this end, just by putting the questions into the public domain and letting the public see these ridiculous excuses i think UKAD played their part as well as they could really. A guilty verdict would just have been the icing on the cake.

Now, the whole Froome saga is very different on one key factor. Evidence, other than just rumour and hearsay of some wrongdoing does exist this time, he returned an AAF. Medical and scientific evidence.

The onus is now on Chris Froome to disprove this evidence.

From a legal standpoint this shift is seismic.


There are still so many unanswered questions from the Jiffy Bag investigation. Freeman holds the key but has faked a couple of sickies, and the select committe whilst doing a very good job early on, have simple allowed this to die since they broke for a general election. If it weren't for the select committee holding them to account and a journalist breaking the story initially, UKAD would have uncovered absolutely nothing here.


I suggest that if the whistleblower was serious they would contact UKAD, instead of a journalist - As much as I believe, NADO's are ineffective, how would you expect UKAD to know about the jiffy bag - And if anything you should be directing your anger at the French NADO, seeing the incident happened on French soil.

I chuckle when you hang your hat on a Government Committee - One could argue the Government indirectly supported this kind of behaviour from British Cycling and Sky - They even cheered from the rafters, glowed in the success and handed out honours like they were out of fashion - This Select Committee is for show only.
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Re: Brits don't dope?

18 Dec 2017 19:09

yaco wrote:
ontheroad wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
ontheroad wrote:"It's the worst thing to be accused of as a man of my integrity given what I believe and what I've done to get to where I am today," Wiggins said while appearing on Sky Sports' Soccer AM.

"But fortunately there is an investigation under way and I can't say too much but that will run its course.

"Eventually I will get my say and there is a lot to say.

"It's going to shock a few people."




Almost 9 months on and Wiggins has yet to reveal any of these 'shocking' revelations.

The Select committee have allowed Freeman to wriggle away by pulling a fake sickie without any questioning. They done a good job initially but once parliament broke they have done nothing since.

Then UKAD have done what they always do.....nothing! The whole episode stinks to high heaven from start to finish. British cycling and Sky have played for time by dragging out the whole affair hoping that it will go away eventually yet fail to provide answers to simple questions. Froome will do the same, it's a tactic that has worked in the past.


The problem with the whole Jiffy Bag saga was that the burden of proof always lay with UKAD. I know its incredibly frustrating and looks as though UKAD are completely ineffective, but really its the same as any other case, without proof and no matter how ridiculous the excuses sound, any attempt at legal sanction is almost doomed to fail. They know that, and in the absence of such proof it would be a foolish waste of resource to keep pursuing it.

But don't worry, Sky may have got a legal free pass on this, but that doesn't mean they didn't sustain serious damage as a result of the investigation. Everyone saw through their excuses, no one believed them, so the damage to their reputation is enormous. To this end, just by putting the questions into the public domain and letting the public see these ridiculous excuses i think UKAD played their part as well as they could really. A guilty verdict would just have been the icing on the cake.

Now, the whole Froome saga is very different on one key factor. Evidence, other than just rumour and hearsay of some wrongdoing does exist this time, he returned an AAF. Medical and scientific evidence.

The onus is now on Chris Froome to disprove this evidence.

From a legal standpoint this shift is seismic.


There are still so many unanswered questions from the Jiffy Bag investigation. Freeman holds the key but has faked a couple of sickies, and the select committe whilst doing a very good job early on, have simple allowed this to die since they broke for a general election. If it weren't for the select committee holding them to account and a journalist breaking the story initially, UKAD would have uncovered absolutely nothing here.


I suggest that if the whistleblower was serious they would contact UKAD, instead of a journalist - As much as I believe, NADO's are ineffective, how would you expect UKAD to know about the jiffy bag - And if anything you should be directing your anger at the French NADO, seeing the incident happened on French soil.

I chuckle when you hang your hat on a Government Committee - One could argue the Government indirectly supported this kind of behaviour from British Cycling and Sky - They even cheered from the rafters, glowed in the success and handed out honours like they were out of fashion - This Select Committee is for show only.


UKAD are pathetic. End of.
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Re: Brits don't dope?

19 Dec 2017 18:17

Both the BBC and the Daily Telegraph are running Gatlin stories today. You'd think the DT would be interested in putting the hurt on rival paper The Times? Or the Beeb taking a swipe at SKY? No chance.

Edited by King Boonen, offensive remark removed.
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Re: Brits don't dope?

19 Dec 2017 18:37

buckle wrote:Both the BBC and the Daily Telegraph are running Gatlin stories today. You'd think the DT would be interested in putting the hurt on rival paper The Times? Or the Beeb taking a swipe at SKY? No chance.


Have to agree. There’s actually not much in the latest Gatlin story, the British press are all over giving it front page news! USADA are every bit to blame just like UKAD for protecting its stars.

It was clear the Froome positive was going to be buried until it was leaked, yet none of the British are remotely interested why that would be the case.

Soon enough we’ll back with the dirty Russians..
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Re: Brits don't dope?

19 Dec 2017 18:54

buckle wrote:Both the BBC and the Daily Telegraph are running Gatlin stories today. You'd think the DT would be interested in putting the hurt on rival paper The Times? Or the Beeb taking a swipe at SKY? No chance.


Charming. Who doesn't love a bit of racial stereotyping to insult a whole nation every now and again.

ps. We're not really a race these days, more an ethnic grouping :p
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Re: Brits don't dope?

19 Dec 2017 18:56

buckle wrote:Both the BBC and the Daily Telegraph are running Gatlin stories today. You'd think the DT would be interested in putting the hurt on rival paper The Times? Or the Beeb taking a swipe at SKY? No chance.


Probably more to do with a twice banned current world champion who was roundly booed after winning the WC associating with people offering to supply doping products (and indeed stating that Gatlin was taking those same products). Last time I looked Froome wasn't banned (let alone twice) - not yet anyway.
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Re: Brits don't dope?

19 Dec 2017 19:05

TheSpud wrote:
buckle wrote:Both the BBC and the Daily Telegraph are running Gatlin stories today. You'd think the DT would be interested in putting the hurt on rival paper The Times? Or the Beeb taking a swipe at SKY? No chance. The British are an unpleasant race.


Probably more to do with a twice banned current world champion who was roundly booed after winning the WC associating with people offering to supply doping products (and indeed stating that Gatlin was taking those same products). Last time I looked Froome wasn't banned (let alone twice) - not yet anyway. And to say 'The British are an unpleasant race' is pretty low and bordering on racism ...


It's not bordering on racism at all. It is racism. Full stop.

It's actually Xenophobia. But as we are referred to as a race, then racism was the intent.

Xenophobia or racism. Take your pick, both deeply unpleasant. :mad:
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Re: Brits don't dope?

19 Dec 2017 22:26

TheSpud wrote:
buckle wrote:Both the BBC and the Daily Telegraph are running Gatlin stories today. You'd think the DT would be interested in putting the hurt on rival paper The Times? Or the Beeb taking a swipe at SKY? No chance.


Probably more to do with a twice banned current world champion who was roundly booed after winning the WC associating with people offering to supply doping products (and indeed stating that Gatlin was taking those same products). Last time I looked Froome wasn't banned (let alone twice) - not yet anyway.


Maybe if they did some journalistic work they would find the doping at Sky. BBC too busy waving flags about British sports stars to talk about doping. Look at Farah. Look at Wiggins and then look at Froome. Not hard to call it.

There is a certain Little Englander mindset, see Brexit.

Edited by King Boonen: Removed reference to deleted remark, hope I haven't changed the meaning.
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19 Dec 2017 22:41

Brits are not a race :)

But like other great sporting nation they are extremely good in looking at other countries for doping stories and dislike looking in their own closet. Same goes for the Dutch (who in sports punch way above their weight, but that's all on "Pindakaas").

On UKAD... every Anti-doping agency is pathetic, simply because they are hilariously outgunned financially and lack any political backing. The only anti-doping agencies who actually manage to bring real cases forward are the Spanish and the Italians... but no way they even dent the problem. That said, I always feel the bile coming up when Spanish and Italian sports are pointed out to be dirty. Sure they are, but considering the absolute and utter unwillingness of North -western Europe to even pursue established doping cases I find it all distasteful.
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Re:

20 Dec 2017 00:50

Franklin wrote:Brits are not a race :)

But like other great sporting nation they are extremely good in looking at other countries for doping stories and dislike looking in their own closet. Same goes for the Dutch (who in sports punch way above their weight, but that's all on "Pindakaas").

On UKAD... every Anti-doping agency is pathetic, simply because they are hilariously outgunned financially and lack any political backing. The only anti-doping agencies who actually manage to bring real cases forward are the Spanish and the Italians... but no way they even dent the problem. That said, I always feel the bile coming up when Spanish and Italian sports are pointed out to be dirty. Sure they are, but considering the absolute and utter unwillingness of North -western Europe to even pursue established doping cases I find it all distasteful.


Yes, the UKAD spent so much time telling everyone how good they were they got tasked with doing AD in Russia. That’s what you get for telling total BS to appease your fawning audiences :lol:
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23 Dec 2017 10:27

http://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/42465404
British sprinter Nigel Levine has failed a drugs test.

Levine, 28, is alleged to have tested positive for the banned asthma drug clenbuterol and the Daily Mail reports he is waiting for his B sample result.

The European indoor gold medallist broke his pelvis in a motorbike crash in Spain in January - the accident also involved fellow Briton James Ellington.

Levine has returned to training but has not competed since and in April he told BBC Sport he was coping "pretty well".

Clenbuterol is on the World Anti-Doping Agency's prohibited list because it is deemed a performance-enhancing drug and can induce weight-loss.
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
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Re:

23 Dec 2017 12:12

Robert5091 wrote:...Levine has returned to training but has not competed since and in April he told BBC Sport he was coping "pretty well".

Clenbuterol is on the World Anti-Doping Agency's prohibited list because it is deemed a performance-enhancing drug and can induce weight-loss.


Should have stuck with Sal, even a double dose. He could have used Dawgs defence when Dawg gets off scott free
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29 Dec 2017 08:33

"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
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Re: Brits don't dope?

29 Dec 2017 21:42

Benotti69 wrote:
TheSpud wrote:
buckle wrote:Both the BBC and the Daily Telegraph are running Gatlin stories today. You'd think the DT would be interested in putting the hurt on rival paper The Times? Or the Beeb taking a swipe at SKY? No chance.


Probably more to do with a twice banned current world champion who was roundly booed after winning the WC associating with people offering to supply doping products (and indeed stating that Gatlin was taking those same products). Last time I looked Froome wasn't banned (let alone twice) - not yet anyway.


Maybe if they did some journalistic work they would find the doping at Sky. BBC too busy waving flags about British sports stars to talk about doping. Look at Farah. Look at Wiggins and then look at Froome. Not hard to call it.

There is a certain Little Englander mindset, see Brexit.

Edited by King Boonen: Removed reference to deleted remark, hope I haven't changed the meaning.


See Brexit? See Scotland. See Catalonia. Just saying.

But yes, essentially you are right, the BBC is never going to be at the forefront of pursuing suspicions about Team Sky, nor Farah, Sutcliffe, or any of them. That's probably something to do with its position as state broadcaster. It's never going to be particularly radical about anything, especially after getting its fingers burned in the Iraq dossier debacle.

The same isn't true of the print media though. The Daily Mail broke the story about the Jiffy, and the Guardian broke the Salbutamol story. I've not read anything for ages in the Guardian about Team Sky that has been positive. Even Cycling Weakly is negative.

Does it have to be British media, digging the dirt on Team Sky? It's only British in name, staff are international and it is owned by an Australian. The main rider is culturally South African. I'm sure there are plenty of media outlets digging but none of them are coming up with much which is why everyone is getting excited about Froome taking too much asthma spray. Whatever real dirt there is, it is buried deep.
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Re: Brits don't dope?

04 Jan 2018 00:30

buckle
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Re: Brits don't dope?

04 Jan 2018 08:56



"truly exceptional circumstances"


What was that then?

It was claimed by Bailey at the time of the test that some bottles of water made available to him by the officer from the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport (CCES), who was acting on behalf on UK Anti-Doping, seemed not to be sealed.


If he didnt drink any, well then surly he is ok? If he did, then fair play. But why drink and then ask questions / refuse later.
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04 Jan 2018 12:28

If I were called on to do an anti-doping test and some of the water offered to me looked like it might have been tampered with I think I would also refuse to do it. It's fairy reasonable to assume that, if you believe someone might have tampered with one part of the testing procedure, then you would believe that they would tamper with another part post sampling.

I don't think that's what happened. I think he probably knew he would test positive and found an easy way out. I would guess that it's highly likely he knew that bottles of water are previously opened a lot of the time (maybe multiple tests in a day) and it was a good get out of jail free clause.

In the end the correct verdict has come out of it. The anti-doping agencies' failure is their fault.
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Re:

04 Jan 2018 18:09

King Boonen wrote:If I were called on to do an anti-doping test and some of the water offered to me looked like it might have been tampered with I think I would also refuse to do it. It's fairy reasonable to assume that, if you believe someone might have tampered with one part of the testing procedure, then you would believe that they would tamper with another part post sampling.

I don't think that's what happened. I think he probably knew he would test positive and found an easy way out. I would guess that it's highly likely he knew that bottles of water are previously opened a lot of the time (maybe multiple tests in a day) and it was a good get out of jail free clause.

In the end the correct verdict has come out of it. The anti-doping agencies' failure is their fault.


Yes, they tend to fail at their job quite a lot. Amazing that. They should be working in PR....oh wait......
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Re: Re:

04 Jan 2018 18:28

Benotti69 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:If I were called on to do an anti-doping test and some of the water offered to me looked like it might have been tampered with I think I would also refuse to do it. It's fairy reasonable to assume that, if you believe someone might have tampered with one part of the testing procedure, then you would believe that they would tamper with another part post sampling.

I don't think that's what happened. I think he probably knew he would test positive and found an easy way out. I would guess that it's highly likely he knew that bottles of water are previously opened a lot of the time (maybe multiple tests in a day) and it was a good get out of jail free clause.

In the end the correct verdict has come out of it. The anti-doping agencies' failure is their fault.


Yes, they tend to fail at their job quite a lot. Amazing that. They should be working in PR....oh wait......


Chronically underfunded, inevitably playing catchup with doping pharma and techniques. I'm sure that there are many in anti-doping who try to do a good job but in essence you are right in that it amounts to a PR effort as much as anything.
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Re: Re:

04 Jan 2018 18:43

macbindle wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:If I were called on to do an anti-doping test and some of the water offered to me looked like it might have been tampered with I think I would also refuse to do it. It's fairy reasonable to assume that, if you believe someone might have tampered with one part of the testing procedure, then you would believe that they would tamper with another part post sampling.

I don't think that's what happened. I think he probably knew he would test positive and found an easy way out. I would guess that it's highly likely he knew that bottles of water are previously opened a lot of the time (maybe multiple tests in a day) and it was a good get out of jail free clause.

In the end the correct verdict has come out of it. The anti-doping agencies' failure is their fault.


Yes, they tend to fail at their job quite a lot. Amazing that. They should be working in PR....oh wait......


Chronically underfunded, inevitably playing catchup with doping pharma and techniques. I'm sure that there are many in anti-doping who try to do a good job but in essence you are right in that it amounts to a PR effort as much as anything.


I disagree, anti-doping isn’t really a tool to stop doping but to contain doping enough so there is no scandal. Bio passport etc. are excellent tools to warn athletes to taper back without the need for suspension or public notice.
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