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being on the record...manifesto baby

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen, Valv.Piti

26 Mar 2014 13:44

On the record for me:

1. I have followed cycling / TdF since the early 80s and the names of Millar, Roche, Hinault, Fignon, etc.
2. I’m surprised Armstrong used PEDs after his cancer because of the health risk, but not surprised (and even suspected) that he used transfusions. We don’t know the whole story here – I believe he used new / unreleased drugs and was indeed a few years ahead of the game. I’m hoping Bruyneel can be persuaded to cough it all up.
3. I get annoyed when people try to lay all the blame @ USPS’s feet – they wouldn’t have been the only team with a sophisticated doping program, although possibly theirs was the most extensive in terms of number of riders involved.
4. I’m willing to give Cookson a go as I believe McQuaid was bad news – I didn’t like the way he tried to change the UCI election rules for his own end.
5. I believe Berty has been a long term doper (Puerto, dodgy beef and plasticisers) but don’t think he was that juiced (if at all) in last year’s tour as he looked toasted in the mountains.
6. I believe blood doping is a lot less prevalent nowadays due to improved testing for EPO / transfusions / plasticisers and also longitudinal testing.
7. I believe SKY are clean – Brailsford and Ellingworth have been long time well know and vehement anti dopers. The fact that their PR often isn’t slick is ok with me – if it all agreed to the letter there would be many on here who would claim it was too perfect.
8. I believe Garmin is clean and trust Vaughters. I’m not bothered that there have been ex-USPS riders involved since many of these were happy to escape the Armstrong / Bruyneel vice and lead a more normal life.
9. The presence of Bjarne Riis and Oleg Tinkov in owning / running a team is very bad for cycling.
10. I have no idea who Dr Maserati is / was but the name makes me laugh.
Justinr
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26 Mar 2014 23:11

I believe people who consistently support a narrative that Froome and Wiggins are believable or have explainable performances are, in fact, Sky supporters, despite their protestations to the contrary.
Letters to and from the pro peloton. twitter | blog
User avatar Dear Wiggo
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27 Mar 2014 00:43

I believe the following: Team Sky are clean, unicorns, Bigfoot, creationism.

Here is the evidence to support my belief.



.
User avatar biker jk
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Mantras

27 Mar 2014 01:15

I think cycling is one of the most beautiful sports in the world combining athleticism, endurance, speed, tactics, verve and panache. My mantra:



When I ride, I feel the wind, it soothes my soul until the end. How I love the silent power, as I glide along for the hours.

Great cycling music lifts my day. The Boss is good, but cycle music he cannot play. Whatever happened to John Tesh, whose cycling music was finesse.

The UCI deserves to die, but Cookson can resurrect the pie. Their commitment to doing clean, would improve the cycling scene.

Doping is cycling's biggest bane, cuz riders want the money-fame. WADA's code sorts out the mess, but what we need is more Travis.

Cycling teams make up the sport, but transparency always comes up short. Make them publish all their data, and I will cancel the Intifada.

Sponsors need a set of rules, so in the end they won't look like fools. Nike, Trek and Oakley people, stumbled badly looking feeble.

Riders need to get on board, so as not to fall upon a sword. If they want a legacy, they need a cleaner policy.

Armstrong cheated for celebrity, because he has no modesty. He's cycling's resident psychopath, which caused a massive personal crash. One he deserved for sure, for sure, because its obvious he ain't pure.

Commentators like Phil Liggett, need to learn to close the spigot. Paul and Bob and all talkfest, should close up shop and take a rest.

We the fans deserve to see, the race is clean, not tainted pee. Otherwise it's all BS, and I turn the channel to DeGeneres.
I have vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals
- Butch Cassidy
User avatar RobbieCanuck
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28 Mar 2014 00:36

Justinr wrote:On the record for me:

1. I have followed cycling / TdF since the early 80s and the names of Millar, Roche, Hinault, Fignon, etc.
2. I’m surprised Armstrong used PEDs after his cancer because of the health risk, but not surprised (and even suspected) that he used transfusions. We don’t know the whole story here – I believe he used new / unreleased drugs and was indeed a few years ahead of the game. I’m hoping Bruyneel can be persuaded to cough it all up.
3. I get annoyed when people try to lay all the blame @ USPS’s feet – they wouldn’t have been the only team with a sophisticated doping program, although possibly theirs was the most extensive in terms of number of riders involved.
4. I’m willing to give Cookson a go as I believe McQuaid was bad news – I didn’t like the way he tried to change the UCI election rules for his own end.
5. I believe Berty has been a long term doper (Puerto, dodgy beef and plasticisers) but don’t think he was that juiced (if at all) in last year’s tour as he looked toasted in the mountains.
6. I believe blood doping is a lot less prevalent nowadays due to improved testing for EPO / transfusions / plasticisers and also longitudinal testing.
7. I believe SKY are clean – Brailsford and Ellingworth have been long time well know and vehement anti dopers. The fact that their PR often isn’t slick is ok with me – if it all agreed to the letter there would be many on here who would claim it was too perfect.
8. I believe Garmin is clean and trust Vaughters. I’m not bothered that there have been ex-USPS riders involved since many of these were happy to escape the Armstrong / Bruyneel vice and lead a more normal life.
9. The presence of Bjarne Riis and Oleg Tinkov in owning / running a team is very bad for cycling.
10. I have no idea who Dr Maserati is / was but the name makes me laugh.


Not forgetting:

Justinr wrote:I happen to believe what i believe (and i have said this a number of times) because of what Brailsford and co did with track cycling.
Letters to and from the pro peloton. twitter | blog
User avatar Dear Wiggo
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28 Mar 2014 03:27

1. Something's definitely off about Sky. Every time I've seen something similar to it happen in cycling, it's been doping.

The way they ride, the way they answer questions, the lies, inconsistencies and omissions of truths and the people involved. There's so much dirt beneath the shiny surface they claim to have. Froome and Wiggins are definitely doping. It wouldn't shock me the slightest to see Porte get caught. Not looking good for Henao either. Urán has switched teams, but it'd be naive to think he wasn't on something either. It wouldn't shock me at all if Kennaugh and/or Thomas start smacking the peloton up and down the parcours during stage races soon, sadly.

2. Horner's not clean and is probably the most obviously dirty rider in the Peloton. The fact that he's still riding is a joke.

3. The punishment for getting caught is way to low. Start doling out five year bans at the very least for riders who are cleary using PEDs deliberately. If it were up to me, serious offences would result in lifetime bans.

4. It's completely ludicrous that former dopers are allowed to manage teams. The first step to cleaning up the sport is getting the filth out of the top jobs.

5. I have no reason to believe that most top riders are clean. Beating tests seems to be quite easy for those who want to beat the system. Look at the amount of dopers who never tested positive and the amount of dopers who said they beat hundreds of tests before they got careless and tested positive. If it's that easy, there's probably a lot of it going on. I do however think that the biopass and more sophisticated tests limit how effective the doping is for the vast majority of dopers.

6. If a new super drug becomes available and testers can't detect it I refuse to believe that riders won't just start using it en masse just like they did with EPO in the 90s. In fact, that might be what's happening at the moment. An arms race, started by Sky. Contador is looking fishy again, at least. We'll know more after the Grand Tours, but I have a feeling we're in for something special this year.
User avatar Saint Unix
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05 Apr 2014 15:55

(Yeah, I know I sorta already did this...)

1: I believe the sport is getting cleaner, but I do not think it will ever be 100 % clean. No sport ever will; there will always be some so determined to win they'll do whatever it takes.

2: Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. However, as has been seen recently 'proven guilty' does not have to involve positive doping tests.

3: It's important to move forward, but just as important to remember the past. Drawing a line in the sand and going "that was all in the past!" only creates the risk that past mistakes might be repeated.

4: I still think that everyone deserves a second chance. After that, however, it's

Image

5: Young up-and-coming riders need to know from the moment they get on race bike that doping is not the way forward, no matter what anyone may tell them.

6: Anyone who tells a young rider that he/she has to dope should be [SIZE="4"]burned![/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]Not really....[/SIZE]
Aka The Ginger One.
User avatar RedheadDane
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05 Apr 2014 21:23

I'm against doping in all sports. I'll probably be thought as an extremist by some/maybe all here, but c'est la vie.

1) Banned for life after first offense.

2) Jail time, minimum of 5 years.

3) The busted athlete has to pay back all career earnings.
Proud member of the 'don't believe the PR from Slipstream Sports' Club.
User avatar BYOP88
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07 Apr 2014 15:27

I believe that road biking is glorified commuting, so why not use a car, the only real type of biking is mountain biking and it's only mountain biking if there are at least three 4 foot + drops and is 75%+ single-track...



On a serious note, I wouldn't be surprised if any cyclist tested positive but I like discussing the evidence behind it and importantly the evidence and science involved in anti-doping efforts.
User avatar King Boonen
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09 Apr 2014 14:41

Merckx index wrote:
Explain how the data would look for there to be nothing suspect. If he had power/weight values comparable to what Grappe claims they are for post-2011, how would you explain his much poorer performances? Are you aware that we have already compared his ITT times pre- and post 2011 Vuelta, and found an indication of a 15% increase in power? How does someone with Froome’s current power ride ITTs so poorly? Do you think better bike handling, not wobbling around so much, can produce a 15% increase in power? Without so much as a visit to a wind tunnel? Seriously?

OTOH, if his power values were consistent with his poorer performance, how would he explain the large increase over a period of a few months in 2011? Michele, who never answered some pertinent questions put to her when she was on the forum recently, implied that it might have resulted from weight loss, but there are no data supporting that claim, either. It’s pure speculation. And even if there were data, they wouldn’t explain a 15% increase in power/surface area. He would have to lose more than 30% of his body weight to accomplish that.

She also didn’t seem aware that Grappe never measured Froome’s V02max; he estimated it, based on assumptions that may or may not be correct. Grappe thinks it’s over 85, and that it might be over 90. How in the world can someone with a V02max that high show so little promise for so long? How many Tom Danielsons are there, who never proved to be quite elite as GT contenders, but who set all kinds of hill climbing records in situations where tactics, bike handling skills and the ability to conserve energy over a three week race did not come into play? And yet a guy with a V02max that might be off the charts is never noticed?

You know the most disappointing part of this entire coverup? Not that they won’t measure and publish his V02max; not that they won’t publish his power values pre-2011; not that they won’t publish his weight during these time periods. It’s that they won’t even admit that there is a problem to address. If Froome is really clean, they should be publishing all the data they can, shouting from the rooftops that a huge increase in performance is possible without doping.

Walsh wants to write a book? How about a detailed description of how such a transformation was made? That would be one of the most inspirational sports science stories of all time, if it could be documented in terms of a detailed analysis of all the relevant parameters. There has to be an explanation for Froome's big jump in performance, and any real trainer or doctor associated with the team would want to know more than anything else in the world how it happened. Maybe it really happened clean, but how will we ever know if they make no effort whatsoever to find out, apparently not even privately, among themselves. That says volumes about what they believe is the answer.


Image
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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11 Apr 2014 19:01

Something more:

I think going around claiming that everyone is doped does not but aiding the dopers, or more specifically the people who tries to make others dope.
Claiming that everyone is doped only makes it easier for those buttholes to convince others that they have to dope in order to get a chance.
Aka The Ginger One.
User avatar RedheadDane
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14 Apr 2014 13:10

I have no heroes. It's decidedly liberating.

I find it difficult to read posts where people lavish praise on professional cyclists who manage to finally finish a race in the top 10 despite having been pretty ordinary since smashing the professional peloton in multi-stage races for 6 months straight not all that long ago. Hero worship. I do not understand it.

Analysing performances and words / interviews of people involved in professional cycling is a hobby of mine.

And I feel sorry for the posters who are so sensitive to any discussion or criticism of their heroes, countrymen or otherwise, that they label it, "abuse", or "hate". This too, I do not understand.
Letters to and from the pro peloton. twitter | blog
User avatar Dear Wiggo
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15 Apr 2014 00:23

Dear Wiggo wrote:I have no heroes. It's decidedly liberating.

I find it difficult to read posts where people lavish praise on professional cyclists who manage to finally finish a race in the top 10 despite having been pretty ordinary since smashing the professional peloton in multi-stage races for 6 months straight not all that long ago. Hero worship. I do not understand it.

Analysing performances and words / interviews of people involved in professional cycling is a hobby of mine.

And I feel sorry for the posters who are so sensitive to any discussion or criticism of their heroes, countrymen or otherwise, that they label it, "abuse", or "hate". This too, I do not understand.


There is a great line in Enemy at the Gates where Kruschev asks the political officers if they know of any heroes around here (Stalingrad under attack) and Commisar Danilov says "I know one"

Well I know one - Clara Hughes, Canadian cyclist and speed-skater, who is a spokesperson for mental health in Canada. See clara-hughes.com

She is the only female athlete in the world to medal in both the summer (cycling) and winter games (speed-skating). I don't hero worship Clara, but I hero respect her a ton.
I have vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals
- Butch Cassidy
User avatar RobbieCanuck
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23 Apr 2014 00:59

RobbieCanuck wrote:There is a great line in Enemy at the Gates where Kruschev asks the political officers if they know of any heroes around here (Stalingrad under attack) and Commisar Danilov says "I know one"

Well I know one - Clara Hughes, Canadian cyclist and speed-skater, who is a spokesperson for mental health in Canada. See clara-hughes.com

She is the only female athlete in the world to medal in both the summer (cycling) and winter games (speed-skating). I don't hero worship Clara, but I hero respect her a ton.


Quick hint. Canada /= World.
User avatar King Boonen
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23 Apr 2014 01:09

King Boonen wrote:Quick hint. Canada /= World.


http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0115194.html
Letters to and from the pro peloton. twitter | blog
User avatar Dear Wiggo
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23 Apr 2014 01:16

King Boonen wrote:Quick hint. Canada /= World.


I think you mean ≠. Besides which every King knows the Scots invented the world.
I have vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals
- Butch Cassidy
User avatar RobbieCanuck
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23 Apr 2014 01:29



You cannot possibly be considering any East German woman of the late '80's period to have been competing clean, or even to be a "woman" beyond any doubt.

I would tend to give the benefit of the doubt to Clara.
purcell
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23 Apr 2014 01:31

RobbieCanuck wrote:I think you mean ≠. Besides which every King knows the Scots invented the world.


No, I mean /=.
User avatar King Boonen
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23 Apr 2014 01:33

purcell wrote:You cannot possibly be considering any East German woman of the late '80's period to have been competing clean, or even to be a "woman" beyond any doubt.

I would tend to give the benefit of the doubt to Clara.


Google Lauryn Williams.
User avatar King Boonen
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23 Apr 2014 01:56

RedheadDane wrote:Something more:

I think going around claiming that everyone is doped does not but aiding the dopers, or more specifically the people who tries to make others dope.
Claiming that everyone is doped only makes it easier for those buttholes to convince others that they have to dope in order to get a chance.


This is a fair and insightful comment. You're right, it does help the dopers hide.
[SIZE="3"]Not sure I even care anymore...[/SIZE]
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