Log in:  

Register

Did EPO use really kill some riders?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Tonton, King Boonen, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky

Re: Re:

10 Dec 2016 00:03

sniper wrote:You don't know if he was anemic.
Last time I checked horse's mouth claims don't count as fact in a discussion on doping, so why not stop selling it as such.


Interesting. Not unreasonable. Personal statements are evidence, and as evidence can be evaluated. They are not facts, this is true.

Oh...wait.

Being anemic and having (vagueley specified) kidney problems would have been the near-ideal backstory in case rumors of his EPO use would ever emerge.


If you followed your own advice you'd not be "selling" a hypothetical about a future rumor as fact. "...his EPO use" is not established. One might say "there is a rumor that he used EPO". That's very different from "rumors of his EPO use". The former establishes it as a rumor, the latter asserts a rumor about an established fact. But you know this.

You may also be aware that rumors are not facts. Yet you seem all too willing to use them in a discussion. Why? You seem to have stringent rules for how others conduct their arguments, but none for yourself. And we are to believe you are making your points in good faith?

Not buying it.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,820
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

22 Dec 2016 00:00

EPO isn't a treatment for anemia, it's a treatment for chronic anemia. Chronic anemia doesn't mean he's just not eating enough cheeseburgers, it means there's an underlying systemic disorder, such as hypothyroidism, cancer or cirrhosis of the liver. And the first-tier treatment for chronic anemia is always a treatment for the underlying disorder, not the administration of EPO.

What's the reference for this "research," a Ouija board?
User avatar StyrbjornSterki
Member
 
Posts: 864
Joined: 18 Jul 2010 22:00

22 Dec 2016 08:41

Neither are kenacort injections the recommended treatment for pollen allergy.

Keep going on that Ouija board.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

23 Dec 2016 18:04

#1, Since Greg Lemond apparently is still quite alive, I fail to see how he is relevant to this thread.

#2, Since these same baseless and factless accusations already got the bespoke thread created for the purpose of slandering Lemond locked, I fail to see why they are being permitted here.

#3, In case you missed the news, Ferrari was right. EPO is about as dangerous as orange juice.
User avatar StyrbjornSterki
Member
 
Posts: 864
Joined: 18 Jul 2010 22:00

23 Dec 2016 18:10

Couldn't agree more Styrbjorn.
viewtopic.php?p=2044322#p2044322
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

08 Jan 2017 03:02

Ferrari - without realising it- showed how far the termites had gone. As if an epo injection, which alters your blood values, would be remotely compareable to drinking a glas of orange juice. Like an amateur demagogue he tried to manipulate the audience but his overconfidence only exposed his depravity.
He realises that no one wants to see a doctor finishing 1,2 and 3 in a cycling monument. Probably made the comment in anger. Narcissists are capable of underplaying their performances, but that doesn't mean they enjoy doing so.

Without the 50% limit, we would have probably seen quite a few EPO deaths long before the first fool tried to digest 50 liters of orangejuice. Personally, I'd love to feed a certain doctor 49,9 liters of orangejuice and give him a bag of saline afterwards for optimal sarcastic value.
Djoop
New Member
 
Posts: 33
Joined: 20 Aug 2015 16:13

03 Feb 2017 21:36

Regarding Anna Lisa Draaijer.
Might it be that she actually signed a quitclaim under US law years ago with PDM and ain't allowed to speak about Johannes EPO usage anymore since then? Just asking since I ain't got no clue how that exactly works in the US justice. But it would make sense then, that she rejected her claims towards the Spiegel magazine and Kathy Lemond wouldn't it!?
User avatar staubsauger
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,849
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 18:14

Re:

04 Feb 2017 20:42

Djoop wrote:As if an epo injection, which alters your blood values, would be remotely compareable to drinking a glas of orange juice.
Ferrari did not compare an EPO injection (of what dosage, do you say?) to drinking a glass of orange juice (also of indeterminate size). He compared abuse of both.
Djoop wrote:Like an amateur demagogue he tried to manipulate the audience but his overconfidence only exposed his depravity.
Hill-fuggin-larious. Hoist by your own petard.
Djoop wrote:Probably made the comment in anger.
None of the people there that day suggest he was angry. Placid, actually.
Djoop wrote:Without the 50% limit, we would have probably seen quite a few EPO deaths long before the first fool tried to digest 50 liters of orangejuice.
The H-limit came in in 1997, IIRC. EPO, it was in widespread use at that stage for at least five years, less widespread use for some unknown time period before that, another five years maybe, let's say. So possibly a decade but at least half a decade and yet ... well where are the bodies on the mortuary slabs? What has López got wrong?
Last edited by fmk_RoI on 04 Feb 2017 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,172
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re:

04 Feb 2017 20:49

staubsauger wrote:Regarding Anna Lisa Draaijer.
Might it be that she actually signed a quitclaim under US law years ago with PDM and ain't allowed to speak about Johannes EPO usage anymore since then? Just asking since I ain't got no clue how that exactly works in the US justice. But it would make sense then, that she rejected her claims towards the Spiegel magazine and Kathy Lemond wouldn't it!?
Let's see your evidence that she took a claim in the US against a Dutch cycling team sponsored by a Dutch company over the death of a Dutch subject in a Dutch town. You must have her name in court records listing the case, is that it?
Last edited by fmk_RoI on 04 Feb 2017 21:43, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,172
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

04 Feb 2017 21:29

Wasn't PDM a Dutch-American joint venture? That's why I asked.
User avatar staubsauger
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,849
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 18:14

09 Feb 2018 12:30

I have a feeling some will be looking for this thread today...
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,172
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re:

09 Feb 2018 13:14

fmk_RoI wrote:I have a feeling some will be looking for this thread today...


Why ?
bigcog
Member
 
Posts: 1,135
Joined: 09 Jul 2012 18:33

Re: Re:

10 Feb 2018 15:07

bigcog wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:I have a feeling some will be looking for this thread today...


Why ?

Take a look at Robin Parisotto's and FMK's twitter accounts, there is some discussion about the rEPO deaths.

Here is one approach to put the 1987-1990 deaths in perspective I can't recall having seen.

According to the widely cited New York Times article from 1991 ("Stamina-Building Drug Linked to Athletes' Deaths"), five Dutch cyclists died mysteriously in 1987, allegedly as victims of recombinant erythropoietin. At that time, there were around 300 patients been treated with rhEPO worldwide for the clinical trials, nobody else. If we assume that these five were the only mysterious rhEPO-deaths, the "patients treated - mysterious deaths" - ratio is around one cyclist dead for every seventy rhEPO patients.

If we compare the situation to the mid-1990's to the years before the health tests, it is fair to assume that practically every endurance type of sport had rhEPO-problem and from the published accounts we know that many athletes were elevating their hematocrit levels to low 60's and even beyond (Riis, 64 %) and this type of attitude must've been widespread. The product was very available and correspondingly the number of people treated with the hormone was in the six figure-levels both in Europe and in the United States.

If the (extremely clumsy but illustrative) 1:70 ratio would have any predictive validity, there should've been up to a few thousand deaths, but mysterious deaths pretty much ended in 1990, as Bernat López demonstrated in his essay. Instead of a few thousand deaths, why not even one or two professionals for the whole period of 1991-1996? At least I see a problem here for the standard panic-fueled story.

Of course the clumsy ratio doesn't address the issue whether cyclists might've had access to the drug in 1987, and it is possible that the group of Dutch who gained access to the substance in the late 1980's got the dosage wrong and the survived generation learned from their mistakes and used aspirin, night alarm clock etc. But how many Dutch cyclists used the substance if five managed to die in only one year? Only the 5? 50? 500? Why didn't the country win every trophy in the world if the drug use was so prevalent in that country? Another issue never addressed is that if anyone somehow managed to buy the (then expensive) rhEPO or get access to the powerful drug via other connections during the pre-pharmacy era, why didn't he spend a a few guldens to monitor his hematocrit levels and instead elevated his hematocrit blindly up to 70%'s?

One last point is that it is strange that when some people sometimes address the issue, they are under the impression that the death of Johannes Draaijer in 1990 started the spate of the mysterious deaths, when it started the KNWU inquiry, public interest and moral panic, but was almost the last mysterious death. I don't even think that Greg LeMond is intentionally lying when he discusses the issue in one of his lectures and talks about "100 deaths" between 1990 and 1995:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLVOCV5Nlms&feature=youtu.be&t=21m7s
(Kathy LeMond claims in the same video from 25:57- that Annalisa Draaijer would've admitted to her that her late husband Johannes Draaijer was on a EPO-program).
User avatar Aragon
Junior Member
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 29 Aug 2016 17:44
Location: Finland

Previous

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: pantanivdb and 15 guests

Back to top