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Did EPO use really kill some riders?

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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 21:05

ScienceIsCool wrote:
sniper wrote:So knowing Lemond's medical profile = believing Lemond's medical profile?
I realize that's your logic (take everything from the horse's mouth as fact).
But no, it's not my logic.


Well you're now on a crazy descent into "there is no such thing as truth", which is a fantastic bit of philosophical wankery. But back here in this forum, it might be useful to stick to citable sources and use the common definitions for things so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

John Swanson
Ball not man.

You're still missing the point.
It's clear that by painting himself as anemic with kidney problems he had made the near-perfect alibi for himself, should his EPO use ever come to light.

And inconsistencies are a give away.
Compare Wiggins's kenacort inconsistencies or Froome's badzilla inconsistencies.
It's a give away.
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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 21:09

sniper wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
sniper wrote:So knowing Lemond's medical profile = believing Lemond's medical profile?
I realize that's your logic (take everything from the horse's mouth as fact).
But no, it's not my logic.


Well you're now on a crazy descent into "there is no such thing as truth", which is a fantastic bit of philosophical wankery. But back here in this forum, it might be useful to stick to citable sources and use the common definitions for things so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

John Swanson
Ball not man.

You're still missing the point.
It's clear that by painting himself as anemic with kidney problems he had made the near-perfect alibi for himself, should his EPO use ever come to light.

And inconsistencies are a give away.
Compare Wiggins's kenacort inconsistencies or Froome's badzilla inconsistencies.
It's a give away.


And not a fact was quoted that day...

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29 Nov 2016 11:39

My point exactly. No facts, just inconsistencies.
And that's Lemonds problem. Not yours or mine.
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Re:

29 Nov 2016 14:36

sniper wrote:My point exactly. No facts, just inconsistencies.
And that's Lemonds problem. Not yours or mine.


Any inconsistencies are solely your own creation. Three sources (I'm sure there are many more) agree on something that happened, at the time of the event. Greg Lemond was diagnosed with anemia after stage 11 of the 1989 Giro d'Italia via blood test. The team doctor (presumably Vanmol) prescribed two iron injections. Greg recovered by the end of the Giro. Erythropoiesis takes 7 days to develop mature blood cells, so this fits.

Now, recounting this anecdote some 25 years later, Greg says it was three shots. And you are using this to imply very heavily that he was "all over the map" regarding this event. Further implying that this is evidence he doped.

If there's anything at all to add to this I think it would be very interesting, but only if you could cite sources. From what I remember, rumors are considered to be trolling in this forum. Non-anonymous quotes from a publication would be the best.

John Swanson
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29 Nov 2016 14:43

Did EPO kill his career? I doubt it did. I believe he was not willing to use EPO along with his other concoction of courage through pharmaceutical help.

I guess we will never really know considering Lemond does not tell the same story more than once.
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Re: Re:

29 Nov 2016 15:01

ScienceIsCool wrote:Any inconsistencies are solely your own creation.
- the links you provided (plus Kimmage interview) speak alternately of two and of three injections.
- on the internet Lemond is known as winning the TdF with one kidney. You say that that is false.
- even Kimmage wasn't sure who provided the injection(s) (Kimmage: "I always thought it was Jacome"; Lemond: "It was Vanmol")

So, while I'm not saying all inconsistencies are Lemond's creation, for you to say they "are solely my own creation", that's blatantly false (in addition to not being very nice ;)).

And whilst they may or may not be his creation, they are his problem.
He had the Kimmage interview to set some things straight, but, to put it mildly, he didn't exactly seize the opportunity.

Interestingly, Lemond's 'transparency campaign' seems to be based on having his lawyer take damaging press releases off the internet. Everything related to the 1999 epo accusations from Castoings is gone, hidden under Google's new privacy laws. Something to hide Greg? Who'd have thunk.

If there's anything at all to add to this I think it would be very interesting, but only if you could cite sources. From what I remember, rumors are considered to be trolling in this forum. Non-anonymous quotes from a publication would be the best.
then maybe it's time to let go of that fantastic rumor that Lemond was winning the TdF three times - whilst recovering from mysterious infections, kidney problems, anemia, and pollen allergies - on paniagua (unlike ca. 95% of all GT winners). Or start providing some evidence to back it up other than horse's mouth statements. You wouldn't want to be seen trolling would you.
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Re: Re:

29 Nov 2016 15:11

sniper wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Any inconsistencies are solely your own creation.
- the links you provided (plus Kimmage interview) speak alternately of two and of three injections.
- on the internet Lemond is known as winning the TdF with one kidney. You say that that is false.
- even Kimmage wasn't sure who provided the injection(s) (Kimmage: "I always thought it was Jacome"; Lemond: "It was Vanmol")

So, while I'm not saying all inconsistencies are Lemond's creation, for you to say they "are solely my own creation", that's blatantly false (in addition to not being very nice ;)).

And whilst they may or may not be his creation, they are his problem.
He had the Kimmage interview to set some things straight, but, to put it mildly, he didn't exactly seize the opportunity.

Interestingly, Lemond's 'transparency campaign' seems to be based on having his lawyer take damaging press releases off the internet. Everything related to the 1999 epo accusations from Castoings is gone, hidden under Google's new privacy laws. Something to hide Greg? Who'd have thunk.

If there's anything at all to add to this I think it would be very interesting, but only if you could cite sources. From what I remember, rumors are considered to be trolling in this forum. Non-anonymous quotes from a publication would be the best.
then maybe it's time to let go of that fantastic rumor that Lemond was winning the TdF three times - whilst recovering from mysterious infections, kidney problems, anemia, and pollen allergies - on paniagua (unlike ca. 95% of all GT winners). Or start providing some evidence to back it up other than horse's mouth statements. You wouldn't want to be seen trolling would you.

Even the amount of injection story has changed. I'm not sure I believe anything he would say except ....when I ask hey you recording this phone conversation and he answers with a NO. I would know without a doubt he was recording it. ;)
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Re: Re:

29 Nov 2016 15:13

sniper wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Any inconsistencies are solely your own creation.
- the links you provided (plus Kimmage interview) speak alternately of two and of three injections.
- on the internet Lemond is known as winning the TdF with one kidney. You say that that is false.
- even Kimmage wasn't sure who provided the injection(s) (Kimmage: "I always thought it was Jacome"; Lemond: "It was Vanmol")

So, while I'm not saying all inconsistencies are Lemond's creation, for you to say they "are solely my own creation", that's blatantly false (in addition to not being very nice ;)).

And whilst they may or may not be his creation, they are his problem.
He had the Kimmage interview to set some things straight, but, to put it mildly, he didn't exactly seize the opportunity.

Interestingly, Lemond's 'transparency campaign' seems to be based on having his lawyer take damaging press releases off the internet. Everything related to the 1999 epo accusations from Castoings is gone, hidden under Google's new privacy laws. Something to hide Greg? Who'd have thunk.

If there's anything at all to add to this I think it would be very interesting, but only if you could cite sources. From what I remember, rumors are considered to be trolling in this forum. Non-anonymous quotes from a publication would be the best.
then maybe it's time to let go of that fantastic rumor that Lemond was winning the TdF three times - whilst recovering from mysterious infections, kidney problems, anemia, and pollen allergies - on paniagua (unlike ca. 95% of all GT winners). Or start providing some evidence to back it up other than horse's mouth statements. You wouldn't want to be seen trolling would you.


This is straight up trolling.

When did Greg lose a kidney? Why did he lose it? Can you cite a source that I won't report for trolling?

Nearly 30 years after the event Greg recounts said event in an interview. A single detail (three versus two injections) doesn't match records of the event from that time.

You've just created a story about Greg using his lawyers and Google's privacy laws to remove a story that you can't find any more. Do you have *any* evidence that happened?

And from that you accuse Greg of doping and me trolling. I'm inclined to report to mods the next time you do this.

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Re: Did EPO use really kill some riders?

29 Nov 2016 15:55

"If you torture the data enough, it will confess"

this seems to be modus operandi around here
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29 Nov 2016 18:23

The next person that hurls out a trolling accusation will face a ban from the forum of up to a week.

Please post in a respectful, courteous, impersonal manner.

Cheers
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Re:

30 Nov 2016 10:31

sniper wrote:I never thought he was a kidney patient.
I do think he tried to portray himself as one, you know, just in case.

anemia + several kidney issues.

I mean, who would have blamed him for taking EPO?


That is a blatant falsehood. You very well did and you know you did. Please don't make me go through pages and pages of your drivel to find the correct quotes.

We had numerous discussions on this issue in which you failed to understand the difference between chronic kidney infections (which are generally urinary tract infections) and actual chronic kidney disease that tends to end in the need for kidney dialysis.
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Re: Re:

30 Nov 2016 10:37

sniper wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
sniper wrote:So knowing Lemond's medical profile = believing Lemond's medical profile?
I realize that's your logic (take everything from the horse's mouth as fact).
But no, it's not my logic.


Well you're now on a crazy descent into "there is no such thing as truth", which is a fantastic bit of philosophical wankery. But back here in this forum, it might be useful to stick to citable sources and use the common definitions for things so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

John Swanson
Ball not man.

You're still missing the point.
It's clear that by painting himself as anemic with kidney problems he had made the near-perfect alibi for himself, should his EPO use ever come to light.

And inconsistencies are a give away.
Compare Wiggins's kenacort inconsistencies or Froome's badzilla inconsistencies.
It's a give away.


There was no need for a narrative since EPO wasn't on the banned substance list. On the one hand you claim that LeMond (get the spelling his name right for once) he used very legs mensal at his disposal to get an edge and would have used EPO because it was still real at that time and yet you think he needs to have a narrative to explain the use of something perfectly legal. Your arguments are all over the place.
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Re: Re:

30 Nov 2016 14:55

GJB123 wrote:
sniper wrote:I never thought he was a kidney patient.
I do think he tried to portray himself as one, you know, just in case.

anemia + several kidney issues.

I mean, who would have blamed him for taking EPO?


That is a blatant falsehood. You very well did and you know you did. Please don't make me go through pages and pages of your drivel to find the correct quotes.

We had numerous discussions on this issue in which you failed to understand the difference between chronic kidney infections (which are generally urinary tract infections) and actual chronic kidney disease that tends to end in the need for kidney dialysis.

Uh-huh. I had a feeling that revisionist history would eventually take place on this argument.

Here is the relevant background.
viewtopic.php?p=1906902#p1906902

And the proof.
viewtopic.php?p=1871515#p1871515
(b) Lemond - the first cycling millionaire and long-term kidney patient starting from childhood - would have had plenty of high-end medical care, starting in his days as a talented junior.
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30 Nov 2016 16:05

Game, set and match on the point of the kidney-issue. Thank djpbaltimore for finding the time and the patience to clearly provide evidence of the falsehood.
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30 Nov 2016 22:40

More like game set and match on your capacity to read.
If I describe Wiggins as an asthmatic, or Froome as a badzilla patient, does that mean I *believe* wiggins is asthmatic and froome really had bilharzia?
Lol.
And what a weird attempt to try and catch me out on some lie about what I do or do not believe. As if that has bearing on anything we've been discussing here? :confused:
I know you like to play man more than you play ball, but you could at least pretend to have something of substance to say on the issue.
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Re:

30 Nov 2016 22:49

sniper wrote:More like game set and match on your capacity to read.
If I describe Wiggins as an asthmatic, or Froome as a badzilla patient, does that mean I *believe* wiggins is asthmatic and froome really had bilharzia?
Lol.


More deflection. You clearly claimed that LeMond was a kidney patient which made him extremely suitable for "legally" experimenting with EPO, Once you were caught you started claiming that naturally the kidney issue was only a ruse used by LeMond to legitimize his EPO-use should he ever get caught. Nothing wrong with my reading abilities, but definitely something wrong with your line of reasoning.
Last edited by GJB123 on 30 Nov 2016 23:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

09 Dec 2016 12:54

GJB123 wrote:
sniper wrote:More like game set and match on your capacity to read.
If I describe Wiggins as an asthmatic, or Froome as a badzilla patient, does that mean I *believe* wiggins is asthmatic and froome really had bilharzia?
Lol.


More deflection. You clearly claimed that LeMond was a kidney patient which made him extremely suitable for "legally" experimenting with EPO, Once you were caught you started claiming that naturally the kidney issue was only a ruse used by LeMond to legitimize his EPO-use should he ever get caught. Nothing wrong with my reading abilities, but definitely something wrong with your line of reasoning.

If that's the impression you got from my posts, I apologize for creating the misunderstanding and I'll try to explain myself better:

I don't know exactly which of Lemond's kidney problems were real and which were not.
I would argue it's to some extent inconsequential. The main point I've been wanting to make is that Lemond had a near-ideal backstory in case any unwanted details about the use of certain substances would ever see the light of day.
Being anemic and having (vagueley specified) kidney problems would have been the near-ideal backstory in case rumors of his EPO use would ever emerge.
Much like Froome's asthma and bilharzia, or Wiggins pollen allergy.
Should, unexpectedly, any dodgy values or other unwanted information (kenacort TUEs) ever see the light of day, Froome and Wiggins made sure they have a backstory.
That has little to do with proof or evidence, but it is (imo) why sick pro-athletes being at the top of their game warrant (additional) scrutiny.

Then, if you look at the inconsistencies in the kidney issues (and there are a couple as I pointed out), it feeds the suspicion that it was just a backstory rather than something real. This, again, has a parallel in Wiggins pollen allergy and Froome's asthma/bilharzia. To paraphrase Dr. House says: truth begins in lies, half-truths and inconsistencies.

And to further the parallel:
Why didn't we hear about Froome's asthma until 2013?
Why didn't we hear about Lemond's kidney problems until 1989?
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09 Dec 2016 14:03

No, no, and no.

Greg's "kidney problems" amount to a single anecdote about how and why he doesn't like injections including how he'd try to avoid antibiotic injections as a kid when he had kidney infections (read: urinary tract infections).

He was anemic and was administered two injections of iron which solved the problem (I've documented several reliable sources). Nothing to do with kidneys whatsoever.

The only inconsistency was Lemond claiming three rather than two injections in an interview 25 years after the event.

So no backstory. No cover for rumors. Nothing like Wiggins. Nothing.

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Re:

09 Dec 2016 14:18

You don't know if he was anemic.
Last time I checked horse's mouth claims don't count as fact in a discussion on doping, so why not stop selling it as such.
Next you're gonna claim Froome really had bilharzia.

Greg's "kidney problems" amount to a single anecdote about how and why he doesn't like injections including how he'd try to avoid antibiotic injections as a kid when he had kidney infections (read: urinary tract infections).
indeed, as I said above, *vaguely specified*, meaning open to different readings.
Do you have evidence for your "urinary tract" reading?
No you don't, so again, stop referring to it as fact.
Next you're gonna claim Froome really had asthma.

The only inconsistency was Lemond claiming three rather than two injections in an interview 25 years after the event.
Good, although somewhat surprising, to see you backtrack on this. Previously you said it was no inconsistency.
Not that it matters much, I mean 2 or 3, who cares...but as it's an inconsistency, how can you possibly claim as fact that he got 2, not 3, injections.
Next you're gonna claim Wiggins really had pollen allergy.

Nothing like Wiggins.

Agreed to disagree.
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Re:

09 Dec 2016 23:49

sniper wrote:My point exactly. No facts, just inconsistencies.
And that's Lemonds problem. Not yours or mine.


Hey another LeMond thread that I didn't know of...

Sniper, you should leave out the "inconsistency". We're talking about a man who once forgot to bring his yellow jersey to the starting line. And yet, you're asking him to remember precisely what happened 30 years ago.

Yep. It's LeMond's problem if he looses his shoes or keys or phone... and yet you're turning this against him as if he was doing this on purpose. Stop acting as if you were his wife.
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