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Official Valverde thread.

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Re: Official Valverde thread.

10 Oct 2018 14:09

gillan1969 wrote:
samhocking wrote:Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.


hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)


I'll agree with that...BUT as this is a cycling forum it has to be pointed out that there's a definite disconnect between sport in general (eg. Athletics) and cycling when it comes to the media.

Sections of the UK media, playing to their readership and a growing anti cycling sentiment in the UK, are all too ready to hang out to dry any cyclists with even a hint of doping controversy, whilst mostly turning a blind eye to most other sports.
brownbobby
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

10 Oct 2018 14:23

brownbobby wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
samhocking wrote:Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.


hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)


I'll agree with that...BUT as this is a cycling forum it has to be pointed out that there's a definite disconnect between sport in general (eg. Athletics) and cycling when it comes to the media.

Sections of the UK media, playing to their readership and a growing anti cycling sentiment in the UK, are all too ready to hang out to dry any cyclists with even a hint of doping controversy, whilst mostly turning a blind eye to most other sports.


its apples and pears....the public on mainland europe has had pro cycling for over a century...we've had it for 6 years....

combined with our hatred of cyclists on the road makes for a different backdrop for any press coverage...

we don't have an anti-doping culture or a doping culture when it comes to cycling...we haven't yet formed that culture...the market is not mature enough......
gillan1969
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

10 Oct 2018 17:34

gillan1969 wrote:
samhocking wrote:Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.


hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)


who's we?
rick james
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Location: Ecosse

10 Oct 2018 17:55

"Operación Puerto is something I shouldn't be asked about," he said bluntly.
"That's water under the bridge, and I don't even want to talk about it. I believe I've sufficiently demonstrated who I am since then.

"Who asks me about Operación Puerto is clueless.




thank my left nut he isn't Anglo Saxon saying stuff like that
rick james
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

10 Oct 2018 22:19

That is Spanish Cycling Culture, it's exactly what I am talking about. Doping is not seen as wrong and it is not seen as something you need to explain. It's no different than speeding ticket. You take yor chance, you get caught, you pay the fine end of story.
samhocking
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

11 Oct 2018 07:47

I'm pretty sure I remember wiggins making a lot of very similar comments after 2007.

Not even about himself but when asked about others like contador, Armstrong, basso, vino, bunch of others he would defend them with the same points valverde makes there.


But according to what I'm reading above, only spanish people behave that way. :cool:
User avatar The Hitch
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

11 Oct 2018 07:54

rick james wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
samhocking wrote:Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.


hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)


who's we?


we, as in the british....all feted and yet all dodgy as.....
gillan1969
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

11 Oct 2018 10:14

The Hitch wrote:I'm pretty sure I remember wiggins making a lot of very similar comments after 2007.

Not even about himself but when asked about others like contador, Armstrong, basso, vino, bunch of others he would defend them with the same points valverde makes there.


But according to what I'm reading above, only spanish people behave that way. :cool:


I'm not saying what Valverde has said is wrong. With the support he received from Spanish Cycling Federation, Spanish Legal System & Spanish Minister for Sports when defending himself against UCI, CONI & WADA his hands are tied. To admit he did anything wrong involves many significant people who defended him at the time. Life would get very messy for him, so omerta is really his only way through it anyway, which is why I think he said many are clueless about Puerto or asking him about Puerto.
As for Wiggins, i'm not sure how that relates to Cultural differences. Anyone who's raced in Spain, gone on training camps with ex Spanish pros etc will understand where I'm coming from, the culture is completely different when discussing doping rider to rider and the ethical reasoning used to justify it.
samhocking
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

11 Oct 2018 10:41

gillan1969 wrote:
rick james wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
samhocking wrote:Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.


hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)


who's we?


we, as in the british....all feted and yet all dodgy as.....


didn't realise you spoke for all the UK
rick james
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

11 Oct 2018 11:07

rick james wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
rick james wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
samhocking wrote:Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.


hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)


who's we?


we, as in the british....all feted and yet all dodgy as.....


didn't realise you spoke for all the UK


I'm not 'speaking' for anyone I'm illustrating what I see with my own eyes in the media and on TV outlets...if you see something different please help me by explaining....
gillan1969
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11 Oct 2018 11:13

Mod hat on:


Ok, this has gone far enough down this path I think. This thread is about Valverde. It's not about the perceived differences between anti-doping/doping sentiments crassly generalised to a whole nation based on anecdotes and personal feelings. Either move your discussion to a relevant thread or stop.

Cheers,

KB.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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11 Oct 2018 11:15

If you think this is bad now, watch this thread blow up if Valverde wins the Il Lombardia (and probably the Velo d'Or).
DanielSong39
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Re:

11 Oct 2018 11:21

DanielSong39 wrote:If you think this is bad now, watch this thread blow up if Valverde wins the Il Lombardia (and probably the Velo d'Or).


Hopefully people will heed this warning now and keep it relevant.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

12 Oct 2018 08:47

rick james wrote:"Operación Puerto is something I shouldn't be asked about," he said bluntly.
"That's water under the bridge, and I don't even want to talk about it. I believe I've sufficiently demonstrated who I am since then.

"Who asks me about Operación Puerto is clueless.




thank my left nut he isn't Anglo Saxon saying stuff like that


CONI, the Italian Olympic committee, may confiscate the blood bags from Operacion Puerto. The court in Madrid has accepted the request of CONI, reports the Spanish newspaper AS.
The ruling means a possible breakthrough in the doping case that has been running since 2006 around the controversial physician Eufemiano Fuentes. Spanish researchers collected a total of 211 blood cases. More than two hundred athletes were involved in the doping practices of Fuentes, including 47 cyclists.
The blood bags are currently stored in the Barcelona laboratory. The laboratory has informed AS that it has not yet received a formal request for a transfer. Fuentes has immediately appealed after the judgment of the Madrid court.
Earlier this week, new world champion Alejandro Valverde did not want to answer any questions about Operacion Puerto. The Spaniard was suspended for two years due to involvement in this case in 2010.

AS article
https://as.com/ciclismo/2018/10/11/mas_ciclismo/1539281004_394846.html
Tim Booth
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12 Oct 2018 08:56

I feel Valverde, is probably gonna have to get involved discussing Operation Puerto whether he likes it or not as it sounds like CONI have finally been granted their quota of the 211 blood bags. Looks like Spanish Cycling Federation have refused to receive their quota and so all other blood and computer equipment and data will be destroyed. Some reports saying CONI will actually receive all 211 bags though.
Fuentes has appealed this new ruling obviously.

Edit. Sorry double-post -ish. We must read AS at the same time : )
samhocking
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12 Oct 2018 12:41

Mod hat on:


Final warning, this thread is about Valverde.

Cheers,

KB.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

12 Oct 2018 17:59

DanielSong39 wrote:If you think this is bad now, watch this thread blow up if Valverde wins the Il Lombardia (and probably the Velo d'Or).

I really hope he wins tomorrow, just for giggles
rick james
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12 Oct 2018 18:55

In fairness to Valverde, though, he is one of the few that can argue water under the bridge regards Puerto; we know he was involved, whether he pretends he was innocent or not we know that, and like only a few others, he's paid the price. Little new can be gleaned from Valverde as far as Operación Puerto is concerned; he isn't going to volunteer anything he doesn't have to, that much is clear, and what are people expecting, that he's going to be sanctioned? Unlike most of the others in Puerto, Valverde, like Scarponi and Basso, actually has been suspended, so apart from stripping a few of his pre-2006 results (and in that instance, which ones? We know that these cases can involve some selectivity, just look at Menchov being stripped of 65th in the Tour but not 1st in the Giro for example) what can they do to him without falling foul of double jeopardy?

The big thing for it is, hardly anybody can pay at this point in time. Valverde is just about the last person from the investigation left of any relevance. I know Mancebo and Sevilla are still active but they've been personae non grata at the top level for a decade and have in reality suffered far more for their involvement than the guys that got bans. They're also 40+ and only competing in distant, less high profile scenes whereas obviously Ally Vally is about as prominent as a rider can get, wearing the rainbow jersey in his sunset like Joop Zoetemelk or something. What are we going to gain from a few post-dated suspensions for the likes of Allan Davis, António Colóm and co.? It's meandered for so long and so many of the actants from a cycling point of view are already well known about, that it's almost faded from relevance at this stage; the known Puerto riders' careers will always have that slight cloud to them. And while there may be something at stake for those who have some of the unknown bags, or knowing definitively who some of the "probably that person but not certainly" bags are, Alejandro Valverde is not one of those people. He's been DNA-matched to a bag, he's been linked definitively to Puerto and he is forever indelibly tainted by it already. Therefore he likely has nothing to fear from this investigation other than repetitious questions he doesn't want to answer and will likely continue to evade in the same manner as always given that he's already told us all he's ever likely to be willing to tell us on the subject.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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Re:

12 Oct 2018 19:00

Libertine Seguros wrote:In fairness to Valverde, though, he is one of the few that can argue water under the bridge regards Puerto; we know he was involved, whether he pretends he was innocent or not we know that, and like only a few others, he's paid the price. Little new can be gleaned from Valverde as far as Operación Puerto is concerned; he isn't going to volunteer anything he doesn't have to, that much is clear, and what are people expecting, that he's going to be sanctioned? Unlike most of the others in Puerto, Valverde, like Scarponi and Basso, actually has been suspended, so apart from stripping a few of his pre-2006 results (and in that instance, which ones? We know that these cases can involve some selectivity, just look at Menchov being stripped of 65th in the Tour but not 1st in the Giro for example) what can they do to him without falling foul of double jeopardy?

The big thing for it is, hardly anybody can pay at this point in time. Valverde is just about the last person from the investigation left of any relevance. I know Mancebo and Sevilla are still active but they've been personae non grata at the top level for a decade and have in reality suffered far more for their involvement than the guys that got bans. They're also 40+ and only competing in distant, less high profile scenes whereas obviously Ally Vally is about as prominent as a rider can get, wearing the rainbow jersey in his sunset like Joop Zoetemelk or something. What are we going to gain from a few post-dated suspensions for the likes of Allan Davis, António Colóm and co.? It's meandered for so long and so many of the actants from a cycling point of view are already well known about, that it's almost faded from relevance at this stage; the known Puerto riders' careers will always have that slight cloud to them. And while there may be something at stake for those who have some of the unknown bags, or knowing definitively who some of the "probably that person but not certainly" bags are, Alejandro Valverde is not one of those people. He's been DNA-matched to a bag, he's been linked definitively to Puerto and he is forever indelibly tainted by it already. Therefore he likely has nothing to fear from this investigation other than repetitious questions he doesn't want to answer and will likely continue to evade in the same manner as always given that he's already told us all he's ever likely to be willing to tell us on the subject.


For those that don't want to read all this text:

Valverde's already been busted and punished for Puerto, nothing more will effect him

Edited by King Boonen.
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12 Oct 2018 19:09

When those same blood bags were originally released to WADA. Valverde was asked about it and actually more or less answered the question. His first comment was: "Does this mean it's finally over and you'll stop asking me about it?" He was then asked something about if he was worried about anything new coming out. His response was, "I've already served my time for this. There is nothing more they can do to me, plus there's nothing else to learn about me." He is one of the few who has nothing to worry about as he did serve a ban for it and they can't do anything more to him. Plus the statute of limitations have passed anyway, which surprisingly he never even made reference to.
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