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Official Valverde thread.

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen, Valv.Piti

Re: Re:

28 Mar 2018 18:30

Aguirre wrote:
WheelofGear wrote:How much lighter is he than he average classics rider? 10 kilos/20 pounds? 15/30 pounds kilos?

It's a bit weird that he can sit with Terpstra, GVA, Sep and Stybar on the cobbles without having any experience on them.


It's not about experience, but legs. Period.

Valverde pure star of cycling


I don't think so. Its also about doping over a 16 year professional career thus maintaining your competitiveness at 38 years of age.

Also, cobbles are not just about legs as anyone who has ridden super bumpy roads would know. The lighter you are the more you get tossed around thus adding the fatigue over 250Km of racing. Valverde has less chance than Nibali at Flanders. Nibali is a more courageous rider Valverde wins by sitting on wheels then outsprinting 60kg climbers. He will get monstered at Flanders. Nibali would attack so he doesn't have compete a sprint against bigger more powerful riders. Valverde doesn't have the ability nor courage to do that. Valverde fans should be hoping he gets through without crashing if so it is great preparation for races ahead he is actually a possibility of winning.
Cookster15
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28 Mar 2018 18:43

Valverde is a living proof that transfusing blood helps an athlete stay young at later stages of life and career long after he quit the blood-doping period.
User avatar Rollthedice
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Re:

28 Mar 2018 21:27

Rollthedice wrote:Valverde is a living proof that transfusing blood helps an athlete stay young at later stages of life and career long after he quit the blood-doping period.


He probably never quit to begin with.

His actual "talent" is probably not nearly as impressive as his fans think it is. Not many cheaters in this sport can rely on a team that supports them all the way, even after they have been caught. Movistar should get a lot more flack for that, but everyone gives them a free pass.
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28 Mar 2018 21:54

You have a point, but actually most WT teams need much more flack. The people who worked or rode during the so called heyday of the doping days are still working in various teams like Astana, Quick Step, Bahrain-Merida, BMC and more. I am already sceptical when 'clean' teams like Sunweb talk about a cultural shift but with these teams I'm quite sure there rarely has been a shift at all.
The sadness of the world has different ways of getting to people, but it seems to succeed almost every time
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Re:

29 Mar 2018 07:31

WheelofGear wrote:How much lighter is he than he average classics rider? 10 kilos/20 pounds? 15/30 pounds kilos?

It's a bit weird that he can sit with Terpstra, GVA, Sep and Stybar on the cobbles without having any experience on them.

There were only 6km of cobbles yesterday, the rest was pretty much an Amstel Gold Race parcours. I doubt he'd be anywhere near those guys in Roubaix.
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31 Mar 2018 23:22

OMG this is a gift that keeps on giving. Is there anyone else in the peloton that is so juiced up? What are the chances this cheat will ever get busted? I guess since Piti is not chalenging the GTs and already served some time he gets a free card huh? I have to give to him, he got his “program” figured out and even the SKY boys have a lot to learn from this old school doper.
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01 Apr 2018 01:37

I love it. His continuing amazing performances make it obvious to anyone willing to connect the dots about the doping problem in cycling. I was really upset when he crashed at the TDF... would have loved to see him on the podium in that race. Maybe this year. He's an inspiration in more ways than one.

I'm honestly not sure why I enjoy seeing him win, (I hate doping) but it's something to do with exposing the hypocrisy of how cycling is supposedly clean these days, and him beating hypocritical doped teams. I never saw Valverde as one of the insiders, corrupting the system like US Postal or Sky, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know how he succeeds if he doesn't have inside backing within the UCI.
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Re: Re:

01 Apr 2018 01:44

El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?
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02 Apr 2018 07:48

Most of the discussion is BS. I want to know what these guys are on. I love Valverde, he has grown on me over the years. It is not like the guys he is beating is clean anyway. Is he microdosing year around @ 11 PM to beat the passport system ? No blood bags because that would be too much of a boost of red blood cells to beat the biopassport ? I don`t think he is doing test at all.
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2018 11:28

Escarabajo wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).
User avatar El Pistolero
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2018 13:46

El Pistolero wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).


I agree with you on everything except the last point. First when you say that he is a wheel sucker, I would say that is subjective so... not a fact. Second, you can´t say that he is currently a cheater and call it a fact, yes in the previous points you are right, he was indeed caught in previous doping scandals and was always supported by the team so that you can consider facts, but although I also think is very plausible for him to be doping now, we can´t say that that is a fact
drebelo
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2018 16:10

El Pistolero wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).

He got suspended for the Puerto blood bag; not busted for BLOOD DOPING later.
User avatar Gung Ho Gun
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Re:

02 Apr 2018 17:36

Serpentin wrote:Most of the discussion is BS. I want to know what these guys are on. I love Valverde, he has grown on me over the years. It is not like the guys he is beating is clean anyway. Is he microdosing year around @ 11 PM to beat the passport system ? No blood bags because that would be too much of a boost of red blood cells to beat the biopassport ? I don`t think he is doing test at all.


I thought it has been discussed conclusively in The Clinic that you can use blood bags with the passport at only low to moderate risk? Didn't Horner's and Hesjudal's blood values suggest blood bags used during a winning grand tour?
spiritualride
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2018 18:01

spiritualride wrote:
Serpentin wrote:Most of the discussion is BS. I want to know what these guys are on. I love Valverde, he has grown on me over the years. It is not like the guys he is beating is clean anyway. Is he microdosing year around @ 11 PM to beat the passport system ? No blood bags because that would be too much of a boost of red blood cells to beat the biopassport ? I don`t think he is doing test at all.


I thought it has been discussed conclusively in The Clinic that you can use blood bags with the passport at only low to moderate risk? Didn't Horner's and Hesjudal's blood values suggest blood bags used during a winning grand tour?

Horner and Hesjadal's performances certainly suggested that they used something, but I'm not aware of any evidence of BB use in any released blood profiles. Perhaps Merckx Index or Andy Coggin know better?
Darryl Webster wrote:
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User avatar Irondan
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2018 19:34

Irondan wrote:
spiritualride wrote:
Serpentin wrote:Most of the discussion is BS. I want to know what these guys are on. I love Valverde, he has grown on me over the years. It is not like the guys he is beating is clean anyway. Is he microdosing year around @ 11 PM to beat the passport system ? No blood bags because that would be too much of a boost of red blood cells to beat the biopassport ? I don`t think he is doing test at all.


I thought it has been discussed conclusively in The Clinic that you can use blood bags with the passport at only low to moderate risk? Didn't Horner's and Hesjudal's blood values suggest blood bags used during a winning grand tour?

Horner and Hesjadal's performances certainly suggested that they used something, but I'm not aware of any evidence of BB use in any released blood profiles. Perhaps Merckx Index or Andy Coggin know better?

Horner passport showed a rebound of his Hgb during the race (while you would expect it to be on a more or less constant downward trend) and reticulocyte suppression, both those combined smells like a blood bag.
See http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/63542182838/analysis-horners-biopassport-data for a more in-depth analysis.
I agree with you on everything except the last point. First when you say that he is a wheel sucker, I would say that is subjective so... not a fact. Second, you can´t say that he is currently a cheater and call it a fact, yes in the previous points you are right, he was indeed caught in previous doping scandals and was always supported by the team so that you can consider facts, but although I also think is very plausible for him to be doping now, we can´t say that that is a fact

He is faster than he ever was up Huy at 35+ and comparatively stronger during the third week/on high mountain GT stages than when we knew he was blood doping heavily, seems rather unlikely to do that clean...
ColonelKidneyBeans
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2018 21:30

El Pistolero wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).



That was ONE offense. Operation Puerto WAS the blood bag.

As for your last comments those are strictly your opinion.
User avatar Koronin
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2018 11:14

Koronin wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).



That was ONE offense. Operation Puerto WAS the blood bag.

As for your last comments those are strictly your opinion.


They also found EPO in the blood bags, so multiple offences. Should've been given a 4 year ban at least.
User avatar El Pistolero
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2018 14:23

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Irondan wrote:
spiritualride wrote:
Serpentin wrote:Most of the discussion is BS. I want to know what these guys are on. I love Valverde, he has grown on me over the years. It is not like the guys he is beating is clean anyway. Is he microdosing year around @ 11 PM to beat the passport system ? No blood bags because that would be too much of a boost of red blood cells to beat the biopassport ? I don`t think he is doing test at all.


I thought it has been discussed conclusively in The Clinic that you can use blood bags with the passport at only low to moderate risk? Didn't Horner's and Hesjudal's blood values suggest blood bags used during a winning grand tour?

Horner and Hesjadal's performances certainly suggested that they used something, but I'm not aware of any evidence of BB use in any released blood profiles. Perhaps Merckx Index or Andy Coggin know better?

Horner passport showed a rebound of his Hgb during the race (while you would expect it to be on a more or less constant downward trend) and reticulocyte suppression, both those combined smells like a blood bag.
See http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/63542182838/analysis-horners-biopassport-data for a more in-depth analysis.
I agree with you on everything except the last point. First when you say that he is a wheel sucker, I would say that is subjective so... not a fact. Second, you can´t say that he is currently a cheater and call it a fact, yes in the previous points you are right, he was indeed caught in previous doping scandals and was always supported by the team so that you can consider facts, but although I also think is very plausible for him to be doping now, we can´t say that that is a fact

He is faster than he ever was up Huy at 35+ and comparatively stronger during the third week/on high mountain GT stages than when we knew he was blood doping heavily, seems rather unlikely to do that clean...

Thanks CKB! I knew someone would know better than me. :D
Darryl Webster wrote:
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User avatar Irondan
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2018 19:21

El Pistolero wrote:
Koronin wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).



That was ONE offense. Operation Puerto WAS the blood bag.

As for your last comments those are strictly your opinion.


They also found EPO in the blood bags, so multiple offences. Should've been given a 4 year ban at least.[/quote]


One offense as it was all connected to Operation Puerto.
User avatar Koronin
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2018 15:17

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Irondan wrote:
spiritualride wrote:
Serpentin wrote:Most of the discussion is BS. I want to know what these guys are on. I love Valverde, he has grown on me over the years. It is not like the guys he is beating is clean anyway. Is he microdosing year around @ 11 PM to beat the passport system ? No blood bags because that would be too much of a boost of red blood cells to beat the biopassport ? I don`t think he is doing test at all.


I thought it has been discussed conclusively in The Clinic that you can use blood bags with the passport at only low to moderate risk? Didn't Horner's and Hesjudal's blood values suggest blood bags used during a winning grand tour?

Horner and Hesjadal's performances certainly suggested that they used something, but I'm not aware of any evidence of BB use in any released blood profiles. Perhaps Merckx Index or Andy Coggin know better?

Horner passport showed a rebound of his Hgb during the race (while you would expect it to be on a more or less constant downward trend) and reticulocyte suppression, both those combined smells like a blood bag.
See http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/63542182838/analysis-horners-biopassport-data for a more in-depth analysis.
I agree with you on everything except the last point. First when you say that he is a wheel sucker, I would say that is subjective so... not a fact. Second, you can´t say that he is currently a cheater and call it a fact, yes in the previous points you are right, he was indeed caught in previous doping scandals and was always supported by the team so that you can consider facts, but although I also think is very plausible for him to be doping now, we can´t say that that is a fact

He is faster than he ever was up Huy at 35+ and comparatively stronger during the third week/on high mountain GT stages than when we knew he was blood doping heavily, seems rather unlikely to do that clean...


Is he really stronger compared to his Kelme days? Or 2005 TDF until he crashed out? I very much doubt that.

For his Huy record, I think one possible reason is that they climb the Huy in a linear pace until 100-125m to go in recent years, so that might contribute his record on Huy.
burning
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