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Official Valverde thread.

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Eshnar, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

Re: Re:

04 Apr 2018 16:30

burning wrote:
ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Irondan wrote:
spiritualride wrote:
Serpentin wrote:Most of the discussion is BS. I want to know what these guys are on. I love Valverde, he has grown on me over the years. It is not like the guys he is beating is clean anyway. Is he microdosing year around @ 11 PM to beat the passport system ? No blood bags because that would be too much of a boost of red blood cells to beat the biopassport ? I don`t think he is doing test at all.


I thought it has been discussed conclusively in The Clinic that you can use blood bags with the passport at only low to moderate risk? Didn't Horner's and Hesjudal's blood values suggest blood bags used during a winning grand tour?

Horner and Hesjadal's performances certainly suggested that they used something, but I'm not aware of any evidence of BB use in any released blood profiles. Perhaps Merckx Index or Andy Coggin know better?

Horner passport showed a rebound of his Hgb during the race (while you would expect it to be on a more or less constant downward trend) and reticulocyte suppression, both those combined smells like a blood bag.
See http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/63542182838/analysis-horners-biopassport-data for a more in-depth analysis.
I agree with you on everything except the last point. First when you say that he is a wheel sucker, I would say that is subjective so... not a fact. Second, you can´t say that he is currently a cheater and call it a fact, yes in the previous points you are right, he was indeed caught in previous doping scandals and was always supported by the team so that you can consider facts, but although I also think is very plausible for him to be doping now, we can´t say that that is a fact

He is faster than he ever was up Huy at 35+ and comparatively stronger during the third week/on high mountain GT stages than when we knew he was blood doping heavily, seems rather unlikely to do that clean...


Is he really stronger compared to his Kelme days? Or 2005 TDF until he crashed out? I very much doubt that.

For his Huy record, I think one possible reason is that they climb the Huy in a linear pace until 100-125m to go in recent years, so that might contribute his record on Huy.

He is more consistent during the third week than before (at least in France), when blood doping gives you the biggest boost, make of that what you will... And frankly, do you believe that a clean older athlete will be able to beat his past fuentes fuelled, younger self, regardless of how Huy his ridden? Are we really going to argue that Valverde is clean now?
ColonelKidneyBeans
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04 Apr 2018 19:29

We're mostly arguing whether there is reason to assume that he is, and ever has been, less clean than other high profile riders.
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Re:

04 Apr 2018 19:53

Gung Ho Gun wrote:We're mostly arguing whether there is reason to assume that he is, and ever has been, less clean than other high profile riders.

I don't think he is any more dirty than the others top level cyclists, he just had the misfortune of being caught, but i also think that he is responding very well to his programme, the way he seems ageless is truly incredible, he hasn't lost much of his explosiveness, only his flat sprint has gotten a bit worse, and he will soon be 38.
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Re: Re:

05 Apr 2018 17:15

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
burning wrote:
ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Irondan wrote:
spiritualride wrote:
I thought it has been discussed conclusively in The Clinic that you can use blood bags with the passport at only low to moderate risk? Didn't Horner's and Hesjudal's blood values suggest blood bags used during a winning grand tour?

Horner and Hesjadal's performances certainly suggested that they used something, but I'm not aware of any evidence of BB use in any released blood profiles. Perhaps Merckx Index or Andy Coggin know better?

Horner passport showed a rebound of his Hgb during the race (while you would expect it to be on a more or less constant downward trend) and reticulocyte suppression, both those combined smells like a blood bag.
See http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/63542182838/analysis-horners-biopassport-data for a more in-depth analysis.
I agree with you on everything except the last point. First when you say that he is a wheel sucker, I would say that is subjective so... not a fact. Second, you can´t say that he is currently a cheater and call it a fact, yes in the previous points you are right, he was indeed caught in previous doping scandals and was always supported by the team so that you can consider facts, but although I also think is very plausible for him to be doping now, we can´t say that that is a fact

He is faster than he ever was up Huy at 35+ and comparatively stronger during the third week/on high mountain GT stages than when we knew he was blood doping heavily, seems rather unlikely to do that clean...


Is he really stronger compared to his Kelme days? Or 2005 TDF until he crashed out? I very much doubt that.

For his Huy record, I think one possible reason is that they climb the Huy in a linear pace until 100-125m to go in recent years, so that might contribute his record on Huy.

He is more consistent during the third week than before (at least in France), when blood doping gives you the biggest boost, make of that what you will... And frankly, do you believe that a clean older athlete will be able to beat his past fuentes fuelled, younger self, regardless of how Huy his ridden? Are we really going to argue that Valverde is clean now?


I am not arguing that he is clean by any means, but I find it hard to believe that he is stronger compared to his pre Puerto days, where he had access to more stuff and he was 10-12 years younger.
burning
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Re: Re:

05 Apr 2018 19:42

I am not arguing that he is clean by any means, but I find it hard to believe that he is stronger compared to his pre Puerto days, where he had access to more stuff and he was 10-12 years younger.

No i don't think that he is stronger than his best pre puerto days in pure aerobic capacity, (courchevel was something else ofc) but he surely is more consistent and stronger at the end of a GT than pre puerto, and we have data that proves that his capacity on shorter efforts hasn't regressed at all and might even have improved, which doesn't make any sense for a clean older athlete.
ColonelKidneyBeans
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Re:

07 Apr 2018 10:54

spiritualride wrote:I love it. His continuing amazing performances make it obvious to anyone willing to connect the dots about the doping problem in cycling. I was really upset when he crashed at the TDF... would have loved to see him on the podium in that race. Maybe this year. He's an inspiration in more ways than one.

I'm honestly not sure why I enjoy seeing him win, (I hate doping) but it's something to do with exposing the hypocrisy of how cycling is supposedly clean these days, and him beating hypocritical doped teams. I never saw Valverde as one of the insiders, corrupting the system like US Postal or Sky, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know how he succeeds if he doesn't have inside backing within the UCI.


Its not so much about him as his bosses Unzue and Echavarri. They have survived the Bruyneels and Manolo Saizs of this world whilst spearheading clients like Indurain to the hall of fame where everybody have either admitted or been busted.

Now watch how they take on their most laughable prospect yet, 38 year former cheat Valverde, into new heights while running away with it. Not only that but with enhanced legacy. We all love Piti right?

Dark magic of Unzue at work.
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Re: Re:

11 Apr 2018 20:16

El Pistolero wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).


Yes, what is funny, yesterday sb said that he is The Boss..
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Re: Re:

12 Apr 2018 09:58

Bot. Sky_Bot wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).


Yes, what is funny, yesterday sb said that he is The Boss..

)
Any proof of this claim: "Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place."
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Re: Re:

12 Apr 2018 16:50

El Pistolero wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Bardamu wrote:Was van Avermaet ever seriously questioned for his connection with a doping doctor? Gilbert for the alleged cortisone abuse within Lotto. Boonen ever questioned for riding his whole career for the doping infested US Postal and Lefevere teams? As long as the riders deny and tell the media that in cobbled classics doping is not needed, Belgian cycling still has a problem. Museeuw was caught and all he admitted was that it was during the end of his career. I don't know why the Belgian people believed him, but they like to look the other way.


Yes, but the newspapers got sued because there was lack of proof. Obviously you need proof if you want to crucify someone. Museeuw was ages ago.

Do you actually believe that the QS boys are clean?


This is the Valverde thread. Stop deflecting all the time.

Fact is Valverde was involved with Operacion Puerto and later got busted for BLOOD DOPING. That's TWO offences.

Fact is Valverde never apologized or admitted guilt.

Fact is Valverde bullied other riders to keep the Omerta in place.

Fact is Movistar supported Valverde financially during his ban. He could also train together with them and make use of their equipment.

Fact is Valverde is still a dirty cheater, coward and wheel-sucker (his worst crime).


As much as you would like it to be so, just you saying it doesn't make it a fact. Him being a "coward and wheel-sucker" is just your opinion.
User avatar Angliru
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12 Apr 2018 17:02

..fact....valverde attacks more than many riders whom don't carry the wheel-sucker tag

Mark L
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12 Apr 2018 17:39

He will win La Vuelta this year for the lols
Last edited by Zama_Olyas on 14 Apr 2018 16:58, edited 1 time in total.
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13 Apr 2018 19:37

How many Bloody Bag *Stars* do we currently have in the peloton?
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Re:

15 Apr 2018 11:28

Bot. Sky_Bot wrote:How many Bloody Bag *Stars* do we currently have in the peloton?
Do you just mean people linked to Fuentes or riders in general with a questionable past (and present)?.
The sadness of the world has different ways of getting to people, but it seems to succeed almost every time
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Re: Re:

15 Apr 2018 12:45

Bardamu wrote:
Bot. Sky_Bot wrote:How many Bloody Bag *Stars* do we currently have in the peloton?
Do you just mean people linked to Fuentes or riders in general with a questionable past (and present)?.


Of course riders famous for cooperation with Fuentes as well as others with bloody bag experiences.
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02 May 2018 19:09

@Koronin
It's huge shame we all the time are forced to watch valverde. Just Mr Nobody, The Master of Bloody Bags. He should be permabanned so many years ago. I hope he wil retire as soon as possible or quit racing regardless of the reasons.
And it was marvellous to watch his defeats during Ardennes.
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Re:

02 May 2018 19:19

Bot. Sky_Bot wrote:@Koronin
It's huge shame we all the time are forced to watch valverde. Just Mr Nobody, The Master of Bloody Bags. He should be permabanned so many years ago. I hope he wil retire as soon as possible or quit racing regardless of the reasons.

Maybe him and Froome can hold hands and skip gaily over the rainbow together.
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02 May 2018 19:22

He's not retiring for a couple more years, so you'll just have to deal with it.
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Re:

02 May 2018 19:54

Koronin wrote:He's not retiring for a couple more years, so you'll just have to deal with it.

And hopefully wins or at least helps his teammates win lots of races on the way. Which he will. Bot Sky Boy won't like that but again he/she is just on the wind up. When Froome goes down, and he will, he/she along with the other blind apologists/wind up merchants will disappear from these forums. At least we, yes, the royal we, know what we are watching. The posters I hate most on this forum are the disingenuous ones and Bot Sky Boy is up there but far from the worst. At least he/she knows and is on the wind up, some others who actually believe I genuinely feel sorrow for.
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Re: Re:

02 May 2018 20:12

ferryman wrote:
Koronin wrote:He's not retiring for a couple more years, so you'll just have to deal with it.

And hopefully wins or at least helps his teammates win lots of races on the way. Which he will. Bot Sky Boy won't like that but again he/she is just on the wind up. When Froome goes down, and he will, he/she along with the other blind apologists/wind up merchants will disappear from these forums. At least we, yes, the royal we, know what we are watching. The posters I hate most on this forum are the disingenuous ones and Bot Sky Boy is up there but far from the worst. At least he/she knows and is on the wind up, some others who actually believe I genuinely feel sorrow for.

He :-).
And you may write just everything. But he is 38-years-old, almost retired, poor-doper-man. With almost any chances to gain any real palmares. And you all should try to face it. As soon as possible.
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Re: Re:

02 May 2018 20:29

ferryman wrote:
Koronin wrote:He's not retiring for a couple more years, so you'll just have to deal with it.

And hopefully wins or at least helps his teammates win lots of races on the way. Which he will. Bot Sky Boy won't like that but again he/she is just on the wind up. When Froome goes down, and he will, he/she along with the other blind apologists/wind up merchants will disappear from these forums. At least we, yes, the royal we, know what we are watching. The posters I hate most on this forum are the disingenuous ones and Bot Sky Boy is up there but far from the worst. At least he/she knows and is on the wind up, some others who actually believe I genuinely feel sorrow for.


Of course then go after someone who had been banned, but is still racing because he loves to race.
He'll do both. He has a couple of teammates who are saying he's not allowed to retire because they still have too much to learn from him. Heck even Landa made a comment during the Ardennes week that he doesn't want Valverde retiring anytime soon because there is so much he has left to learn and so much he didn't know he needed to learn. He was actually specifically referring to leadership abilities in the interview. Valverde has also talked a couple of times about the fact that there are many ways he can help the team even if he's not longer able to win. The team has also talked about invented a position for him as a coach/mentor after he retires.
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