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Official Valverde thread.

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

06 Oct 2018 10:36

KyoGrey wrote:Not more or less acceptable than with other cyclings or pro athletes.

Since the introduction of the huge distortions by blood doping in the late 80's (and whatever is now on top of that) the bar as to what is acceptable and unacceptable is more related with coherent career trayectories vs ludicrous appearances & big changes in performance.

And of course the notion that in Spain there is a notably worse doping culture than in Britain or the USA is just ****.

USA has been the doping powerhouse since forever and Britain is top division since the program implemented in approach to the 2012 Olympics.

I wonder what the reactions would be if this type of things were said on the other way...


Valverde has very likely been doping all his pro career, so again don't give me this **** about 'coherent career trajectories'

And the fact that you again decided to write about ludicrous appearances, changes in performance etc shows that you can't help yourself regardless of your first sentence.
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06 Oct 2018 12:04

If Valverde is still doping (which is very likely), then all those "clean champions" who are droping him in the high mountains are doing the same, if not worse (also very likely). I don't believe a second, that a clean rider can keep a wheel with a full-doped Alejandro Valverde, or even drop him :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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06 Oct 2018 13:21

At some point, the gazillion-year-old doper who was never among the best in the high mountains in the first place should start getting dropped by hypothetical clean contenders.
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Re:

06 Oct 2018 17:19

hrotha wrote:At some point, the gazillion-year-old doper who was never among the best in the high mountains in the first place should start getting dropped by hypothetical clean contenders.


He has always been either among the best or just below. To say "never among the best" is pretty much just lying. How does a rider get multiple grand tour podiums, including a Tour podium, being mediocre versus the clock, be never among the best in the high mountains? Never is quite broad a brush, maybe not often or seldom would be more accurate from your perspective? How could a rider with such limitations as you mention still reach the podium of the Giro in the latter stage of his career?
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Re: Re:

06 Oct 2018 18:52

Angliru wrote:
hrotha wrote:At some point, the gazillion-year-old doper who was never among the best in the high mountains in the first place should start getting dropped by hypothetical clean contenders.


He has always been either among the best or just below. To say "never among the best" is pretty much just lying. How does a rider get multiple grand tour podiums, including a Tour podium, being mediocre versus the clock, be never among the best in the high mountains? Never is quite broad a brush, maybe not often or seldom would be more accurate from your perspective? How could a rider with such limitations as you mention still reach the podium of the Giro in the latter stage of his career?

It depends on your definition of 'best'. Valverde has never dominated GTs in the mountains, nor has he ever had really outstanding climbing displays in the high mountains in the GTs over the years.

He's been close in GTs when there was no outstanding climbers, and when there was, Valverde got dropped in the high mountains when those riders brought down the hammer.

But the hypothesis that Valverde at some point should be getting dropped by hypothetical clean riders is true, but it shouldn't apply to a 38 year old by any stretch of the imagination.

The real issue would be that Valverde probably doped a lot harder early in his career than the current younger riders, and there's no way of knowing what the residual effect of that is.
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Re: Re:

06 Oct 2018 20:17

Red Rick wrote:
Angliru wrote:
hrotha wrote:At some point, the gazillion-year-old doper who was never among the best in the high mountains in the first place should start getting dropped by hypothetical clean contenders.


He has always been either among the best or just below. To say "never among the best" is pretty much just lying. How does a rider get multiple grand tour podiums, including a Tour podium, being mediocre versus the clock, be never among the best in the high mountains? Never is quite broad a brush, maybe not often or seldom would be more accurate from your perspective? How could a rider with such limitations as you mention still reach the podium of the Giro in the latter stage of his career?

It depends on your definition of 'best'. Valverde has never dominated GTs in the mountains, nor has he ever had really outstanding climbing displays in the high mountains in the GTs over the years.

He's been close in GTs when there was no outstanding climbers, and when there was, Valverde got dropped in the high mountains when those riders brought down the hammer.

But the hypothesis that Valverde at some point should be getting dropped by hypothetical clean riders is true, but it shouldn't apply to a 38 year old by any stretch of the imagination.

The real issue would be that Valverde probably doped a lot harder early in his career than the current younger riders, and there's no way of knowing what the residual effect of that is.

Not sure that is the real issue. If the early-career high level of doping gives a significant long term peformance advantage, then you would have seen loads more riders of Valverde's generation and age still tearing up the peloton in the past few years. But he's basically the only one.
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Re:

06 Oct 2018 20:46

hrotha wrote:At some point, the gazillion-year-old doper who was never among the best in the high mountains in the first place should start getting dropped by hypothetical clean contenders.


Not sure if the rider who won on Envalira, La Pandera, Morredero, Lagunas de Neila, Courchevel, Peyragudes, Arrate, Collada de la Gallina, Cumbres Verdes, La Molina, Jebel Hafeet was never among the best in the high mountains :rolleyes:
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07 Oct 2018 13:37

Lol at the long string of Vuelta unipuertos as if they said anything about anyone's potential in the high mountains.

Anyway, no, Valverde was never among the best, unless you're using "the best" to mean "GC contenders". In which case, fair enough, but don't get up in arms when someone is clearly using different criteria. Remember, the context was Valverde getting dropped by other riders in the mountains. The best Valverde was still dropped by other riders in the mountains. Regularly.

And anyway number 2, the point stands. Maybe focus on that?
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Re:

08 Oct 2018 06:55

hrotha wrote:Lol at the long string of Vuelta unipuertos as if they said anything about anyone's potential in the high mountains.

Anyway, no, Valverde was never among the best, unless you're using "the best" to mean "GC contenders". In which case, fair enough, but don't get up in arms when someone is clearly using different criteria. Remember, the context was Valverde getting dropped by other riders in the mountains. The best Valverde was still dropped by other riders in the mountains. Regularly.

And anyway number 2, the point stands. Maybe focus on that?


So name another rider who like Valverde was never among the best in mountains :rolleyes: yet won as half as he on that same mountains?

The truth is, he was always among the best in the mountains, otherwise he would not be able to reach 8 GT podiums! Never the best (ok maybe once or twice - Vuelta 2009, 2006), but always among the very best.
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08 Oct 2018 13:28

Semantics, semantics, semantics.

Whatever floats your boat.
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

08 Oct 2018 23:31

samhocking wrote:As far as I understand. Valverde was banned, Contador was banned. The point is Froome & Wiggins were not banned yet still thrown under a bus by British media, but not Spanish media. Valverde & Contador the opposite and celebrated at the end of their careers regardless of doping. That is a cultural difference.
It's like when my cycling buddy goes off to his training camps in Spain. The spanish simply don't see doping as wrong much of the time. The ex pros and locals he trains with, simply see doping as acceptable and part of what cycling is and being a good rider is about, whereas I would argue France & Britain see it more like what cycling shouldn't be, especially the media and fans.

The poster knows the above is not true. That brit oficialy caught dopers do not get attacked by the media and on the contrary get defended and their crimes ignored.

But posts it anyway just to get responses.

Sigh.
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09 Oct 2018 09:26

You know it's true. Spanish & Italian media wwere generally not that bothered about Froome or Wiggins, UK & French media were all over it every day like a rash. Lets not forget who broke Wiggins & Froome's stories. It was over every tabloid for heavens sake in both Countries, both times a joint effort to expose too!
There is a doping culture difference between France & UK and Spain & Italy when it comes to doping attitudes. I'm hardly the first to say it, it's been said by pretty much every serious cycling commentator for years now!
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

09 Oct 2018 11:01

The Hitch wrote:
samhocking wrote:As far as I understand. Valverde was banned, Contador was banned. The point is Froome & Wiggins were not banned yet still thrown under a bus by British media, but not Spanish media. Valverde & Contador the opposite and celebrated at the end of their careers regardless of doping. That is a cultural difference.
It's like when my cycling buddy goes off to his training camps in Spain. The spanish simply don't see doping as wrong much of the time. The ex pros and locals he trains with, simply see doping as acceptable and part of what cycling is and being a good rider is about, whereas I would argue France & Britain see it more like what cycling shouldn't be, especially the media and fans.

The poster knows the above is not true. That brit oficialy caught dopers do not get attacked by the media and on the contrary get defended and their crimes ignored.

But posts it anyway just to get responses.

Sigh.


Crimes ignored??

What nonsense.....as an example, did you read many of the UK tabloids reporting on Yates Vuelta win. I guess not, because they devoted more words to reminding everyone about the ban he'd served for the Asthma meds issue, than they did actually talking about the GT win.

Same with Thomas and the TDF, because they had nothing doping related to attribute to Thomas personally, nearly every article supposedly reporting on his win had lengthy reference to his connections with Froome/Wiggins/Sky and all the doping associated insinuations.

You might think that's all justified, maybe it is, but to state as fact that Brits (media) ignore dopoing crimes is laughable.
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Re:

09 Oct 2018 11:59

samhocking wrote:You know it's true. Spanish & Italian media wwere generally not that bothered about Froome or Wiggins, UK & French media were all over it every day like a rash. Lets not forget who broke Wiggins & Froome's stories. It was over every tabloid for heavens sake in both Countries, both times a joint effort to expose too!
There is a doping culture difference between France & UK and Spain & Italy when it comes to doping attitudes. I'm hardly the first to say it, it's been said by pretty much every serious cycling commentator for years now!


That would explain the last iconic Italian rider being arrested by the police and publicly manhandled into custody all while on display to the public by the media. That certainly is an example of a country whose culture is one of looking the other way in terms of doping. :rolleyes:
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09 Oct 2018 21:14

And who was that?
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10 Oct 2018 10:16

I would imagine that was Pantani, even if the details aren't entirely accurate. But the treatment he got was massively unpopular and most of the Italian public emphatically stood by him and practically worshipped him, so I don't think that would be a good example.
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10 Oct 2018 10:31

For a minute I thought Ricco was iconic
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10 Oct 2018 12:22

Oh, right. Potential quibbles over the definition of "iconic" aside, Riccò certainly makes more sense.
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

10 Oct 2018 13:06

Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
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Re: Official Valverde thread.

10 Oct 2018 13:55

samhocking wrote:Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.


hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)
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