Log in:  

Register

Quintana??

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, peloton, Eshnar, Red Rick, King Boonen, Tonton, Pricey_sky

Re:

15 Sep 2016 07:52

sniper wrote:I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

several riders were caught on it, even in world tour like miguel ubeto from lampre, also there is marlon perez, a colombian who was caught in costa rica
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,175
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Re: Re:

15 Sep 2016 10:54

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
sniper wrote:I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

several riders were caught on it, even in world tour like miguel ubeto from lampre, also there is marlon perez, a colombian who was caught in costa rica


I am sorry Ryo, but Colombians don't dope, so please stop, please. They are altitude natives.
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 18,387
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

15 Sep 2016 13:39

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
sniper wrote:I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

several riders were caught on it, even in world tour like miguel ubeto from lampre, also there is marlon perez, a colombian who was caught in costa rica


These riders you mention were caught for GW501516 tough, not AICAR. There is no recorded positive for it (that i know of).
It also seems difficult to test for since it's naturally occuring in the body, you need to set a threshold level, and we know where that leads... microdosing yai! (maybe not even so "micro" if it's as high as e.g. the 4/1 T/E ratio for the testosterone test)
GW501516, that's another story, i can't understand how people thougth that this would be undetectable...
ColonelKidneyBeans
New Member
 
Posts: 22
Joined: 15 Sep 2016 13:18

Re: Re:

16 Sep 2016 09:08

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
sniper wrote:I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

several riders were caught on it, even in world tour like miguel ubeto from lampre, also there is marlon perez, a colombian who was caught in costa rica


Both those riders you referenced tested positive for GW501516...not AICAR.

Both GW501516 & AICAR are metabolic modulators, but are different chemically. GW501516 has a very long elimination rate for one; upwards to 40 days for a single 15mg dose can be detected. GW501516 is also very toxic causing neoplastic pathology in rats during the clinical trials (one reason why it didn't make it past the animal trials). AICAR is difficult to detect as it's produced endogenously. WADA currently uses a threshold measure to detect possible use of AICAR. To date, I'm not aware of any AICAR threshold positives (I'm sure it would be big news in the cycling world). Here's an excellent study on both substances (metabolic pathways, elimination rates, health risks, etc.):

> J Physiol Pharmacol. 2014 Aug;65(4):469-76.

Metabolic modulators of the exercise response: doping control analysis of an agonist of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor δ (GW501516) and 5-aminoimidazole-4-carboxamide ribonucleotide (AICAR).

Pokrywka A1, Cholbinski P, Kaliszewski P, Kowalczyk K, Koncza

I recall the CIRC report from last year stating that AICAR was popular in the peloton. And quantities of AICAR & TB 500 were found in the possession of Colombian doping doctor Alberto Beltran when he was arrested in Spain in 2013...so it's probably out there.
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 209
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

16 Sep 2016 12:35

beltran was arrested in 2011 I think
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,175
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Re:

17 Sep 2016 09:41

Ryo Hazuki wrote:beltran was arrested in 2011 I think


We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.
Last edited by Nomad on 17 Sep 2016 11:28, edited 1 time in total.
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 209
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Re:

19 Sep 2016 10:53

Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:beltran was arrested in 2011 I think


We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,175
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Re: Re:

19 Sep 2016 11:25

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:beltran was arrested in 2011 I think


We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla


Who cleaned up Colombian cycling and can you get them to Europe?
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 18,387
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

19 Sep 2016 12:44

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:beltran was arrested in 2011 I think


We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla


A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 209
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Re:

19 Sep 2016 17:43

Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:beltran was arrested in 2011 I think


We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla


A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

I don't think you have any clue about the professionalism of domestic colombian cycling. better not comment then.

and calling beltran a heavy hitter is hilarious, he was spit out of europe several years before after working for the small xacobeo team in spain. nobody wanted him anymore and he tried his luck in colombia without success
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,175
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Re: Re:

19 Sep 2016 17:49

"cleaned up", as in "stepped out of the dark ages and got their programs up to standard"?
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,124
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re: Re:

19 Sep 2016 18:22

sniper wrote:"cleaned up", as in "stepped out of the dark ages and got their programs up to standard"?

Image
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,175
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

19 Sep 2016 19:08

:D
that's you? i love that pic.

as for the colombian cycling scene, if people tell you it's clean, trust me it means you're far on the outside and they want you to stay there.
Like you want to dance at that wedding, but your name is not on the guest list.
But keep trying. They might let you in to clean up the tables.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,124
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re: Re:

20 Sep 2016 03:23

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:beltran was arrested in 2011 I think


We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla


A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

I don't think you have any clue about the professionalism of domestic colombian cycling. better not comment then.

and calling beltran a heavy hitter is hilarious, he was spit out of europe several years before after working for the small xacobeo team in spain. nobody wanted him anymore and he tried his luck in colombia without success


And your comments are accurate? Afterall, you're the one that said "several" riders tested positive for AICAR...not even close; none as in zero. Btw, do you ever post any links backing up your assertions? I provided you the paper on AICAR...so you should be well informed now. Beltran had AICAR in his possession. It's very expensive which, IMO, suggests he was selling it to athletes who had the financial resources to purchase it. So, why wouldn't any WT riders be some of his customers? AICAR was shown to increase endurance significantly (~44%) in lab mice during the clinicals, and It doesn't influence either the hematological or steriodal module of the ABP. If riders were willing to risk their health with a very toxic drug like GW1516, which has a long glow time (your doping positives you referenced), why wouldn't top WT riders use a safer and harder to detect PED such as AICAR?

Furthermore, the CIRC report from last year tells us a culture of doping still exists but that it's been primarily pushed underground, and also mentions that doping doctors are still being used as a resource (imagine that). And granted industrial-strength doping has stopped with the bio passport, the report mentions that evidence of microdosing & blood doping continue, and that *AICAR* is popular within the peloton. And now you have riders (e.g., Froome, Quintana, Rodriguez) starting to beat the times of confirmed doped riders up some of the biggest climbs (e.g., Alpe d'Huez). In fact, Quintana recently made the all-time top 100 list for the fastest ascents up AH. He's shown in 37th ahead of a myriad of known & supected dopers. No hard evidence (as the proverbial catch phrase is these days), but, IMO, very suspicious.

http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/five-fresh-names-in-all-time-top-100.html?m=1
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 209
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Re:

20 Sep 2016 03:46

Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla


A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

I don't think you have any clue about the professionalism of domestic colombian cycling. better not comment then.

and calling beltran a heavy hitter is hilarious, he was spit out of europe several years before after working for the small xacobeo team in spain. nobody wanted him anymore and he tried his luck in colombia without success


And your comments are accurate? Afterall, you're the one that said "several" riders tested positive for AICAR...not even close; none as in zero. Btw, do you ever post any links backing up your assertions? I provided you the paper on AICAR...so you should be well informed now. Beltran had AICAR in his possession. It's very expensive which, IMO, suggests he was selling it to athletes who had the financial resources to purchase it. So, why wouldn't any WT riders be some of his customers? AICAR was shown to increase endurance significantly (~44%) in lab mice during the clinicals, and It doesn't influence either the hematological or steriodal module of the ABP. If riders were willing to risk their health with a very toxic drug like GW1516, which has a long glow time (your doping positives you referenced), why wouldn't top WT riders use a safer and harder to detect PED such as AICAR?

Furthermore, the CIRC report from last year tells us a culture of doping still exists but that it's been primarily pushed underground, and also mentions that doping doctors are still being used as a resource (imagine that). And granted industrial-strength doping has stopped with the bio passport, the report mentions that evidence of microdosing & blood doping continue, and that *AICAR* is popular within the peloton. And now you have riders (e.g., Froome, Quintana, Rodriguez) starting to beat the times of confirmed doped riders up some of the biggest climbs (e.g., Alpe d'Huez). In fact, Quintana recently made the all-time top 100 list for the fastest ascents up AH. He's shown in 37th ahead of a myriad of known & supected dopers. No hard evidence (as the proverbial catch phrase is these days), but, IMO, very suspicious.

http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/five-fresh-names-in-all-time-top-100.html?m=1


FYI, Quintana went even faster in 2015 and the the only riders that beat Quintana are from in 2006 or before.
burning
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,130
Joined: 29 Feb 2012 21:33

Re: Quintana??

20 Sep 2016 05:55

Good point (I missed that on my initial search). So, even more supicious, IMO, because his 2015 time puts him at 23rd all-time; 1 second behind Riis' second fastest time in 97 and a few seconds ahead of Indurain's second fastest time in 94! Even more surprising is he beat Rasmussen's fastest time in 06 by 20+ seconds...and we all know how doped MR was in 06. Also very interesting on this list is there's no times set before 1991, and none from the great ones of that earlier era: No LeMond, no Hinault, no Fignon, no Merckx (they did climb Alpe d'Huez back then? Lol ).

http://www.climbing-records.com/2015/07/three-riders-make-it-into-alpe-dhuez.html?m=1
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 209
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Re:

20 Sep 2016 07:51

Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:[quote=

We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla


A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

I don't think you have any clue about the professionalism of domestic colombian cycling. better not comment then.

and calling beltran a heavy hitter is hilarious, he was spit out of europe several years before after working for the small xacobeo team in spain. nobody wanted him anymore and he tried his luck in colombia without success


And your comments are accurate? Afterall, you're the one that said "several" riders tested positive for AICAR...not even close; none as in zero. Btw, do you ever post any links backing up your assertions? I provided you the paper on AICAR...so you should be well informed now. Beltran had AICAR in his possession. It's very expensive which, IMO, suggests he was selling it to athletes who had the financial resources to purchase it. So, why wouldn't any WT riders be some of his customers? AICAR was shown to increase endurance significantly (~44%) in lab mice during the clinicals, and It doesn't influence either the hematological or steriodal module of the ABP. If riders were willing to risk their health with a very toxic drug like GW1516, which has a long glow time (your doping positives you referenced), why wouldn't top WT riders use a safer and harder to detect PED such as AICAR?

Furthermore, the CIRC report from last year tells us a culture of doping still exists but that it's been primarily pushed underground, and also mentions that doping doctors are still being used as a resource (imagine that). And granted industrial-strength doping has stopped with the bio passport, the report mentions that evidence of microdosing & blood doping continue, and that *AICAR* is popular within the peloton. And now you have riders (e.g., Froome, Quintana, Rodriguez) starting to beat the times of confirmed doped riders up some of the biggest climbs (e.g., Alpe d'Huez). In fact, Quintana recently made the all-time top 100 list for the fastest ascents up AH. He's shown in 37th ahead of a myriad of known & supected dopers. No hard evidence (as the proverbial catch phrase is these days), but, IMO, very suspicious.

http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/five-fresh-names-in-all-time-top-100.html?m=1



http://www.uk-peptides.com/aicar-50mg

yeah aicar is really expensive :rolleyes:
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,175
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Re: Quintana??

20 Sep 2016 08:24

The amount used in the mice experiments was 500 mg per kilogram over 4 weeks. Translate that to an average size human over several weeks and it get's a tad bit expensive. This from a Velonation article:

"From an anti-doping point of view, there is one positive thing about AICAR: it’s very expensive to buy. The experiments Professor Evans ran involved a dose of 500mg per kilo body weight for four weeks. That’s the time the experiment with mice took. A gram costs between $80 and $100 so, theoretically doses for humans would costs several hundred dollars. The French paper Libération quotes figures of half a million euro for a treatment with AICAR in a lab in Vienna. But again, there is no research whatsoever to show how much and how long you need to take it to get an effect, so figures are hard to determine."

http://www.velonation.com/news/id/11395/doping-aicar-telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 209
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

20 Sep 2016 08:57

In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,124
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re:

20 Sep 2016 09:15

sniper wrote:In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

source for the 150.000 dollar? according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,175
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bobbins and 16 guests

Back to top