Log in:  

Register

Quintana??

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

20 Sep 2016 09:20

according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it


Plenty of doping doctors told us that EPO is useless.
Tienus
Member
 
Posts: 555
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 18:15

Re: Re:

20 Sep 2016 09:42

Ryo Hazuki wrote:..
source for the 150.000 dollar?

good one.
until now you've sourced nothing except pictures of yourself wearing a tinfoil hat.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re:

20 Sep 2016 09:50

sniper wrote:In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.


Wasn't there a report that empty packaging of AICAR was found in Astana's team hotel (s) during the 09 Tour? You had Astana 1 & 3 on the podium and LA seemed pretty excited about his comeback. LA would sure have the $$$ to buy it. Perhaps that's the secret potion that Piti's using for his remarkable anti-aging performances we see from him throughout the season. Lol. (Btw, he also made the Alpe d'Huez top 100 list with both his 2013/15 times...unbelievable).
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re:

20 Sep 2016 09:52

Tienus wrote:
according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it


Plenty of doping doctors told us that EPO is useless.


Yeah...including that ridiculous study that came out a few months ago with amateur cyclists on Ventoux.
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Quintana??

20 Sep 2016 10:18



any explanation why there is no top 100-time for the 1999 ADH-ascent ? (the guerini vs. cam fight)
it was the stage after armstrong stormed sestriere, so i suppose cooked GC-guys is one explanation.
but is there any reasonable "clinic" reasons for low 1999 performances?
malakassis
Junior Member
 
Posts: 134
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 18:56

Re: Quintana??

20 Sep 2016 11:20

malakassis wrote:


any explanation why there is no top 100-time for the 1999 ADH-ascent ? (the guerini vs. cam fight)
it was the stage after armstrong stormed sestriere, so i suppose cooked GC-guys is one explanation.
but is there any reasonable "clinic" reasons for low 1999 performances?


Interesting...and maybe because Pantani wasn't there? He holds the top three fastest times; 94, 95 & 97 (they didn't ride it in 98 when he won the Giro-Tour double). 97 was when the 50% Hct limit was implemented and wasn't Pantani "parked" in 99 during the Giro for going over the Hct speed limit? It's a good question...maybe someone else can chime in. Also, I find it interesting that 5 of the top 10 times were set in the 50% Hct limit period - including Pantani's sizzling 97 time (sub 37). Super-high responders to O2-vector doping.
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Quintana??

20 Sep 2016 11:37

malakassis wrote:


any explanation why there is no top 100-time for the 1999 ADH-ascent ? (the guerini vs. cam fight)
it was the stage after armstrong stormed sestriere, so i suppose cooked GC-guys is one explanation.
but is there any reasonable "clinic" reasons for low 1999 performances?

Apparently the GC riders finished in a group of 8 or so including Kurt Van De Wouwer, so they didn't go all out. Also possible that most guys slightly toned their programmes down following Festina and Pantani.
User avatar Gung Ho Gun
Member
 
Posts: 467
Joined: 15 Jul 2013 14:46

Re: Re:

20 Sep 2016 11:53

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
sniper wrote:In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

source for the 150.000 dollar? according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it


Ferrari has said many things, some truthful, some blatant lies and many whose truthfulness value lies in between...

Concerning AICAR testing, only cologne seems to have a working test, and i'm not sure about it's practicality. AICAR is an endogenous molecule, and one that does not seem incredibly complex at first glance. It's not like EPO where there's subtle difference between the human version and the exogenous version (EPO is a very big glycoprotein, if i'm not mistaken there's even some variation in the endogenous forms of it) and you can "just" use some form of chromatography or electrophoresis to separate them.
I don't know about AICAR, maybe a isotope carbone ratio test would work, but it's quite expensive.
So they probably would end up with a "working" test just like the testo test (not exactly the same mechanism,but for the sake of example), where you set a threshold and use the expensive test when the athlete exceed it. Since it will probably be set high, that's leaving plenty of room to microdose... Or manipulation by bypassing the threshold and going straight to te second test with certain athletes... Ok a bit of conspiracy but remember the Verbruggen quote...
Working on a molecule still in clinical trials might not help them too...
ColonelKidneyBeans
New Member
 
Posts: 37
Joined: 15 Sep 2016 13:18

Re: Re:

20 Sep 2016 12:16

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
sniper wrote:In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

source for the 150.000 dollar? according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it






If you haven't already read this paper, you might find it interesting on the testing protocols:

J Physiol Pharmacol. 2014 Aug;65(4):469-76.

Metabolic modulators of the exercise response: doping control analysis of an agonist of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor δ (GW501516) and 5-aminoimidazole-4-carboxamide ribonucleotide (AICAR).

Pokrywka A1, Cholbinski P, Kaliszewski P, Kowalczyk K, Koncza

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25179079
Last edited by Nomad on 20 Sep 2016 12:35, edited 2 times in total.
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Re:

20 Sep 2016 12:18

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
sniper wrote:In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

source for the 150.000 dollar? according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it


Ferrari has said many things, some truthful, some blatant lies and many whose truthfulness value lies in between...

Concerning AICAR testing, only cologne seems to have a working test, and i'm not sure about it's practicality. AICAR is an endogenous molecule, and one that does not seem incredibly complex at first glance. It's not like EPO where there's subtle difference between the human version and the exogenous version (EPO is a very big glycoprotein, if i'm not mistaken there's even some variation in the endogenous forms of it) and you can "just" use some form of chromatography or electrophoresis to separate them.
I don't know about AICAR, maybe a isotope carbone ratio test would work, but it's quite expensive.
So they probably would end up with a "working" test just like the testo test (not exactly the same mechanism,but for the sake of example), where you set a threshold and use the expensive test when the athlete exceed it. Since it will probably be set high, that's leaving plenty of room to microdose... Or manipulation by bypassing the threshold and going straight to te second test with certain athletes... Ok a bit of conspiracy but remember the Verbruggen quote...
Working on a molecule still in clinical trials might not help them too...


If you haven't already read this paper, you might find it interesting on the testing protocols:

J Physiol Pharmacol. 2014 Aug;65(4):469-76.

Metabolic modulators of the exercise response: doping control analysis of an agonist of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor δ (GW501516) and 5-aminoimidazole-4-carboxamide ribonucleotide (AICAR).

Pokrywka A1, Cholbinski P, Kaliszewski P, Kowalczyk K, Koncza

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25179079
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

20 Sep 2016 17:35

The 2004 leaks from Lequipe for the 1999 testing where epo was found in Armstrong documented some speculative amounts in each's body. Armstrong was one of the highest. And found little or none in others. Some ex-cyclists were commenting that the peloton was relatively scare after the Festina affair and was probably cautious. I don't think that Lance cared.

Times to ADH could have been affected.

I could be wrong but I read it too long ago. Maybe somebody has better details.
User avatar Escarabajo
Veteran
 
Posts: 8,330
Joined: 16 Apr 2009 18:38
Location: USA - Central Time

Re:

20 Sep 2016 19:33

Escarabajo wrote:The 2004 leaks from Lequipe for the 1999 testing where epo was found in Armstrong documented some speculative amounts in each's body. Armstrong was one of the highest. And found little or none in others. Some ex-cyclists were commenting that the peloton was relatively scare after the Festina affair and was probably cautious. I don't think that Lance cared.

Times to ADH could have been affected.

I could be wrong but I read it too long ago. Maybe somebody has better details.

armstrong was the worst in 99, of which those 2004 results came. zulle aparantly was riding clean that tour and scared ****less after 98. tells you how much talent he really had. same thing with christophe moreau, who julich had told vaughters, was riding completely clean (after 98)
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,174
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Re:

20 Sep 2016 22:09

Escarabajo wrote:The 2004 leaks from Lequipe for the 1999 testing where epo was found in Armstrong documented some speculative amounts in each's body. Armstrong was one of the highest. And found little or none in others. Some ex-cyclists were commenting that the peloton was relatively scare after the Festina affair and was probably cautious. I don't think that Lance cared.

Times to ADH could have been affected.

I could be wrong but I read it too long ago. Maybe somebody has better details.


Interesting point...LA destroyed Zulle by over 7 1/2 mins that year...his biggest margin of victory in any of his 7 Tours.
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Re:

21 Sep 2016 06:00

Nomad wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:The 2004 leaks from Lequipe for the 1999 testing where epo was found in Armstrong documented some speculative amounts in each's body. Armstrong was one of the highest. And found little or none in others. Some ex-cyclists were commenting that the peloton was relatively scare after the Festina affair and was probably cautious. I don't think that Lance cared.

Times to ADH could have been affected.

I could be wrong but I read it too long ago. Maybe somebody has better details.


Interesting point...LA destroyed Zulle by over 7 1/2 mins that year...his biggest margin of victory in any of his 7 Tours.



Passage du gois says hello

In terms of climbing speeds, yes the 1999 tour is maybe the slowest tour since 1993. It is not a myth that many teams raced without any jet fuel.

And i agree that it was the weakest lance of all the 7 wins. Which says a lot about what happened the next years...
User avatar jens_attacks
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,757
Joined: 08 Sep 2009 18:00

21 Sep 2016 06:19

Some racing without extravagant jet fuel, sure, but zuelle clean? Whayahahayahahauaj.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re: Re:

21 Sep 2016 07:20

Nomad wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:The 2004 leaks from Lequipe for the 1999 testing where epo was found in Armstrong documented some speculative amounts in each's body. Armstrong was one of the highest. And found little or none in others. Some ex-cyclists were commenting that the peloton was relatively scare after the Festina affair and was probably cautious. I don't think that Lance cared.

Times to ADH could have been affected.

I could be wrong but I read it too long ago. Maybe somebody has better details.


Interesting point...LA destroyed Zulle by over 7 1/2 mins that year...his biggest margin of victory in any of his 7 Tours.

only due to passage de bois. otherwise zulle would've won. I think zulle lost more than 7 minutes there among many other gc favorites and riders who retired
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,174
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Re:

21 Sep 2016 07:21

sniper wrote:Some racing without extravagant jet fuel, sure, but zuelle clean? Whayahahayahahauaj.

he definintely used no epo in 99 (according to l'equipe tests). not to mention the guy was a mental wreckage after the tour 98. I don't think he ever juiced afterwards. same with moreau
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,174
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Re: Re:

21 Sep 2016 07:56

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
sniper wrote:Some racing without extravagant jet fuel, sure, but zuelle clean? Whayahahayahahauaj.

he definintely used no epo in 99 (according to l'equipe tests). not to mention the guy was a mental wreckage after the tour 98. I don't think he ever juiced afterwards. same with moreau


You're spot on...looking at his palmares after 99, his performances plummeted badly in the few GTs he did before retirement. You guys at The Clinic are sharp as a tack :)
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Re:

21 Sep 2016 08:13

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:The 2004 leaks from Lequipe for the 1999 testing where epo was found in Armstrong documented some speculative amounts in each's body. Armstrong was one of the highest. And found little or none in others. Some ex-cyclists were commenting that the peloton was relatively scare after the Festina affair and was probably cautious. I don't think that Lance cared.

Times to ADH could have been affected.

I could be wrong but I read it too long ago. Maybe somebody has better details.


Interesting point...LA destroyed Zulle by over 7 1/2 mins that year...his biggest margin of victory in any of his 7 Tours.

only due to passage de bois. otherwise zulle would've won. I think zulle lost more than 7 minutes there among many other gc favorites and riders who retired

No he didn't. He lost 6 minutes there and lost another 1'40 in the time trials and Sestriere.
User avatar Gung Ho Gun
Member
 
Posts: 467
Joined: 15 Jul 2013 14:46

Re: Re:

21 Sep 2016 08:27

Gung Ho Gun wrote:
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:The 2004 leaks from Lequipe for the 1999 testing where epo was found in Armstrong documented some speculative amounts in each's body. Armstrong was one of the highest. And found little or none in others. Some ex-cyclists were commenting that the peloton was relatively scare after the Festina affair and was probably cautious. I don't think that Lance cared.

Times to ADH could have been affected.

I could be wrong but I read it too long ago. Maybe somebody has better details.


Interesting point...LA destroyed Zulle by over 7 1/2 mins that year...his biggest margin of victory in any of his 7 Tours.

only due to passage de bois. otherwise zulle would've won. I think zulle lost more than 7 minutes there among many other gc favorites and riders who retired

No he didn't. He lost 6 minutes there and lost another 1'40 in the time trials and Sestriere.

ah, well he would've finished within 2 minutes then. still pretty good. but lance was relatively weak in 99, as was his team
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Veteran
 
Posts: 16,174
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 14 guests

Back to top