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Calling out dopers, ignoring others, Omertà and hypocrisy

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Calling out dopers, ignoring others, Omertà and hypocris

05 May 2015 12:31

SeriousSam wrote:
Yes, PEDS are being used all the time for nothing but vanity and getting the better of your circle of accquintances. Shockingly, their use becomes even more prevalent when you can actually make money winning like in pro sports. :p


thisthisthis
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Re: Calling out dopers, ignoring others, Omertà and hypocris

05 May 2015 13:22

Freddythefrog wrote:Freibe is just another hack sucking up to British Cycling and but turning as the wind changes direction.

Haven't read either of his books but I like his stuff generally, his opinions on doping are a little soft (I said as much) but he does go on the record about it, he did a warts and all profile on the deceased Frank VDB here, which again is more than the standard fare on CyclingNews was 10 years ago. So I don't think he's a hack but as always YMMV. Maybe I'll get around to reading his Merckx book and change my mind.

blackcat wrote:
SeriousSam wrote:Yes, PEDS are being used all the time for nothing but vanity and getting the better of your circle of accquintances. Shockingly, their use becomes even more prevalent when you can actually make money winning like in pro sports. :p


thisthisthis

Yeah, that's why WorldTour cyclists get subjected to the most rigorous, invasive and extensive year round drug testing of all sports. And thankfully you don't see them whining about it nearly as much as they used to and as they do in other sports. So while It's far, far more lucrative to dope in the WorldTour, it's also far, far harder. So no, I'm not sure that doping is not more prevalent among your local scene elite, the sort of guys that beat former pros on Gran Fondos and take current WorldTour pros' KOMs.

The Hitch wrote:And with Valverde and Contador being the guys at the top top top, this should be a million times easier than it was when Armstrong was at the top. Because its not like Valverde or Contador can sue you for questioning them when they already served doping bans.

But no one does. That's telling.

BTW, just for the record I do wish they'd to this more. That was my main point. It really peeved me to see Aru defending himself by retweeting a guy with a giant "Pantani Vive" grafitti as his background, I thought those days were gone. Valverde in particular seems like a really easy target. But any way you cut it they'd have to tiptoe around it somewhat or get sued.

The Hitch wrote:And ps, when I say attack Contador and Valverde, I mean question how it is that they are winning NOW and not merely attack them for having doped before while implying they cleaned up their act and have learned how to win clean in this new fairytale utopia peloton.

Again, guys begging for a lawsuit from someone with a lot more money than them isn't happening. Even Kimmage is shying from that approach. People have families to feed.

The Hitch wrote:In any case, saying "Vino doped", or "Di Luca doped" isn't saying very much because there have been plenty of people in the sport who have pointed fingers at scapegoats and later turned out to have doped.

There are probably three teams that pay riders anywhere as much as Sky pays Froome. One is run by Vino and the other until recently by Riis. It does speak a lot to the current culture of pro cycling that he's probably wary of being photographed with either of those two gentlemen. Whether or not it's just for show.
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06 May 2015 02:17

re: Kimmage, I loved his article mostrecently. http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/where-is-the-line-between-the-sport-and-the-man-31191377.html

@PaulKimmage: 'YOU HAVE A MORAL DUTY TO EXPOSE THESE CHEATING BASTARDS'

I love the presentation of the choices an author faces, with the ambiguity of what a journalist does in fact choose. The article may show that he was loosing fire, but the tweet obviously shows that recognition, and the choice not to slows down.
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Re:

15 May 2015 21:27

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Re:

24 Jul 2015 11:56

CyclingNews wrote:Sky have tried to regain control of the narrative by releasing Froome’s numbers but only full transparency would come close to quelling the innuendo. Even then, a wider, reliable, system of analysis would need to be implemented to provide concrete answers.

Interesting. Mirrors a conversation recently had in the Sky thread, but advocating the tougher "full transparency" position vs. the "better transparency" incrementalism I defended.
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24 Jul 2015 19:54

Good idea about obligation to expose, call out, reveal, report, provide evidence... of doping, exactly the same way we're theoretically obliged to report any criminal behavior to the police... which would become natural if doping was a crime.

Btw, if you want to "understand" or predict Sky "moves", just try to think what would YOU do in their place... in order to cover things, produce some PR, smokescreens, etc. You'll certainly invent lots of stuff that will be better than what they actually do.
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28 Jul 2015 11:37

Don't know how much this story has been discussed here, but here's a link anyway...

http://www.alpsandes.com/posts/2015/7/26/threats-and-the-end-of-a-dream-juan-pablo-villegas-speaks-out-about-being-forced-to-retire

Intro:

As the rest of the world comes down from it's Tour de France high, I sit here staring at my computer screen, shaking my head. Not so much in disbelief, but simple sadness. You see, as a result of an interview I did with Juan Pablo Villegas earlier this year, a series of events have come to pass that eventually led him to retire from the sport. A sport that has been his entire life for the last eleven years.

In this interview, Juan Pablo explains his decision, how it's affected his life, and in so doing reveals how little has changed in the sport in the last ten years in terms of intimidation, and the treatment of riders who speak openly about the forbidden topic by directors, fellow riders, the press and even cycling federations. As I've said before, omertà is alive and well, and not merely as an allusive term. And if you think Colombia is alone in this matter...well, let's just say there's lots more work to be done on that front as well.
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Re:

29 Jul 2015 16:04



That's really tough. The Colombian media reacted well, it would seem, the federation evidently not so much. The problem with Colombian cycling is the local circuit, there are a couple of "good" teams developing riders (the clinic may now chuckle) but the rest seem really sketchy. Jingoism as always getting in the way of clean cycling.

There seems to be a little more to this story, though, that they didn't get into. He was racing for SmartStop and suddenly switched to Manzana Postobon mid-season before retiring, when I would've guessed he was better off in the states.

On the other note, a strong voice against jingoism and for clean cycling seems to be emerging in Ireland. Great podcasts with Kimmage, Walsh and even Dan Martin. The best, though, was with Stephen Roche. The subtext was strong near the end of this one:

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/The_Panel_on_Off_the_Ball/61230/A_Saturday_Panel_special_with_Stephen_Roche
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13 Mar 2018 15:24

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/team-sky-rise-and-fall-sad-parable-human-nature-bradley-wiggins-dave-brailsford-a8247016.html

This was good.

I particularly enjoyed the Syed bit; and the way Liew refuses to label him a journalist. Which is fair. As Syed was instrumental in how "the doctrine of marginal gains - one that essentially ignored Team Sky’s gargantuan budget and attributed its success to the accumulation of small advantages like using hand gel to reduce infections - became not simply a natty little tale to spin the papers, but a cultish business credo that its advocates have ruthlessly commodified for personal enrichment." It also poignantly and unintentionally belies Liew's point: it's easier to cast out the fallen than to reflect on the fault in ourselves. It's easier to blame the Syeds of the world than than to reflect on what we contributed to the mess (beyond stating that platitude as a theoretical purpose), and Liew comes off a bit like Kimmage in his accounting when he wasn't quite that brave.

But then again it also underlines that whatever the systematic faults, whatever the universal moral failings that are endemic to humanity and to society that spawn corruption, and whatever our complicity and our hypocrisy in shunning the scarlet lettered while ignoring our own sin, it is also important to come down on the worst, or at least the most visible, of the offenders. Because whatever theoretical complexities, stating your purpose, and rooting out the worst weeds, is inficione better than to fall onto cynical apathy because the whole exercise is just too hard and too unfair.
"Christmas is tomorrow... Let's get in the break." - Matt Hayman, 4/9/16
"What a strange illusion it is to suppose that beauty is goodness." - Tolstoy
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Re:

03 May 2018 14:29

carton wrote:But then again it also underlines that whatever the systematic faults, whatever the universal moral failings that are endemic to humanity and to society that spawn corruption, and whatever our complicity and our hypocrisy in shunning the scarlet lettered while ignoring our own sin, it is also important to come down on the worst, or at least the most visible, of the offenders. Because whatever theoretical complexities, stating your purpose, and rooting out the worst weeds, is inficione better than to fall onto cynical apathy because the whole exercise is just too hard and too unfair.

So this is maybe more a manifesto post than a post for this thread, but this really underscores the point I wanted to make in that passage.

https://areomagazine.com/2018/04/09/in-defense-of-hypocrisy/
"Christmas is tomorrow... Let's get in the break." - Matt Hayman, 4/9/16
"What a strange illusion it is to suppose that beauty is goodness." - Tolstoy
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04 May 2018 11:08

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Re:

04 May 2018 11:42



:rolleyes:
Barry´s confession is from 2012, Michael Woods turned pro in 2013 with a little Canadian team and noone interviewed him back then.
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04 May 2018 11:50

His excuse for not talking about Froome is also lame.
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