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Geraint Thomas, the next british hope

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Re:

08 Aug 2018 01:41

samhocking wrote:Well, he's not doing it all at the same time is he. When he did Track he was the best at it, when he did classics he was one of the best at that, then he switched to week long stage races and was very good at that, now he's switched to Grand Tours with leadership responsibility and he won that.
I think the obvious point being, that many Grand Tour riders, with focused training over a year or two could be World Pursuit Champions. Many could probably be pretty good classics riders too, but the top of the tree is the Grand Tours. If you're already there, like Contador, Indurain or Armstrong from a young age via doping, why would give it all up to ride a World Pursuit final and only get a bag of peanuts as your salary?

He was one of the best classics riders? He had a few good results but not enough to call him one of the best.
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Re: Re:

08 Aug 2018 02:36

Winterfold wrote:
Fearless Greg Lemond wrote:
samhocking wrote:Still waiting for your list of pursuiters who kicked *** at TT's though?


I'm not sure why I am helping him but both Boardman and Obree went from pursuit to the Hour Record, which supports some of his physiological argument.

The flaw is that track cycling requires upper body strength to resist the G force and constant acceleration - this then becomes a big problem when you hit the mountains in a road race. When in a steady state in the velodrome, or a flat prologue mass can be overcome by aerodynamics so both Boardman's and Obree's 'technical doping' worked. You can't do this in the mountains, there is no way of hiding mass from gravity.

The debate really is can you turn 85kg of trackie into 67kg of GT winner without them losing power? Not credibly to many of us...


All the dialectics here lead us to this essential question.

Can someone who is defending Thomas being clean/plausible please respond directly to this?
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08 Aug 2018 03:13

Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.

For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.

So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.

And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.
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Re:

08 Aug 2018 03:31

The Hegelian wrote:Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.

For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.

So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.

And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.


I don't know the physical reasons and difficulty with retaining a certain percentage of your power after shedding significant kgs, but a part of the reason why great classics riders don't try shedding 10-20 kgs and giving the GC a go is because it is a risk. As has been mentioned, Thomas was not a great classics rider. He was a good classics rider. Certainly he had less success to give up then the cyclists you mentioned above by forgoing his classics career. I would have loved to have seen how Cancellara could have gone on GC in a GT, but he never took that at all seriously. And why should he have? He would be giving up likely victories in the cobbled classics for what? A top 10? Maybe. A podium? Very unlikely. The point here is that Thomas is a talented cyclist, but as he wasn't a great classics rider he wasn't giving up so much to give stage racing a serious go.

BTW, I would love to see how Sagan could go in GC. We already know that he is quite a good climber. But he'd have to lose 8-10 kgs and potentially waste an entire season. And who knows if he could then return to the rider that he was?
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Re: Re:

08 Aug 2018 06:54

gregrowlerson wrote:
The Hegelian wrote:Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.

For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.

So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.

And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.


I don't know the physical reasons and difficulty with retaining a certain percentage of your power after shedding significant kgs, but a part of the reason why great classics riders don't try shedding 10-20 kgs and giving the GC a go is because it is a risk. As has been mentioned, Thomas was not a great classics rider. He was a good classics rider. Certainly he had less success to give up then the cyclists you mentioned above by forgoing his classics career. I would have loved to have seen how Cancellara could have gone on GC in a GT, but he never took that at all seriously. And why should he have? He would be giving up likely victories in the cobbled classics for what? A top 10? Maybe. A podium? Very unlikely. The point here is that Thomas is a talented cyclist, but as he wasn't a great classics rider he wasn't giving up so much to give stage racing a serious go.

BTW, I would love to see how Sagan could go in GC. We already know that he is quite a good climber. But he'd have to lose 8-10 kgs and potentially waste an entire season. And who knows if he could then return to the rider that he was?


Okay so your argument is: Sagan, Terpstra, Cancellera etc could all have won/win/podium/top 10 GT's, if only they commit to it by taking a risk and potentially sacrificing success in their areas of brilliance.

It's just a matter of dropping the weight, and hey presto, a classics beast changes into a GC beast.

My argument is: there's no plausible way to drop that much weight, whilst maintaining/gaining power without cheating. Whenever those kinds of transformations have happened in the past, it's always been a massive, massive red flag for doping - for mine, Jalabert and Armstrong are the two big standouts, it looked bloody suss back then, and it turned out to be bloody suss once we got all the facts.
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08 Aug 2018 08:43

Thomas didn't lose 10 kg in 2015-2018 unless he gained 20 kg in 2012.
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Re: Re:

08 Aug 2018 10:45

The Hegelian wrote:
gregrowlerson wrote:
The Hegelian wrote:Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.

For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.

So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.

And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.


I don't know the physical reasons and difficulty with retaining a certain percentage of your power after shedding significant kgs, but a part of the reason why great classics riders don't try shedding 10-20 kgs and giving the GC a go is because it is a risk. As has been mentioned, Thomas was not a great classics rider. He was a good classics rider. Certainly he had less success to give up then the cyclists you mentioned above by forgoing his classics career. I would have loved to have seen how Cancellara could have gone on GC in a GT, but he never took that at all seriously. And why should he have? He would be giving up likely victories in the cobbled classics for what? A top 10? Maybe. A podium? Very unlikely. The point here is that Thomas is a talented cyclist, but as he wasn't a great classics rider he wasn't giving up so much to give stage racing a serious go.

BTW, I would love to see how Sagan could go in GC. We already know that he is quite a good climber. But he'd have to lose 8-10 kgs and potentially waste an entire season. And who knows if he could then return to the rider that he was?


Okay so your argument is: Sagan, Terpstra, Cancellera etc could all have won/win/podium/top 10 GT's, if only they commit to it by taking a risk and potentially sacrificing success in their areas of brilliance.

It's just a matter of dropping the weight, and hey presto, a classics beast changes into a GC beast.

My argument is: there's no plausible way to drop that much weight, whilst maintaining/gaining power without cheating. Whenever those kinds of transformations have happened in the past, it's always been a massive, massive red flag for doping - for mine, Jalabert and Armstrong are the two big standouts, it looked bloody suss back then, and it turned out to be bloody suss once we got all the facts.

And many of those riders simply don't want to take all those extra drugs to lose that weight and keep it off. There are many more health risks to consider.
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Re: Re:

08 Aug 2018 11:38

veganrob wrote:
The Hegelian wrote:
gregrowlerson wrote:
The Hegelian wrote:Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.

For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.

So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.

And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.


I don't know the physical reasons and difficulty with retaining a certain percentage of your power after shedding significant kgs, but a part of the reason why great classics riders don't try shedding 10-20 kgs and giving the GC a go is because it is a risk. As has been mentioned, Thomas was not a great classics rider. He was a good classics rider. Certainly he had less success to give up then the cyclists you mentioned above by forgoing his classics career. I would have loved to have seen how Cancellara could have gone on GC in a GT, but he never took that at all seriously. And why should he have? He would be giving up likely victories in the cobbled classics for what? A top 10? Maybe. A podium? Very unlikely. The point here is that Thomas is a talented cyclist, but as he wasn't a great classics rider he wasn't giving up so much to give stage racing a serious go.

BTW, I would love to see how Sagan could go in GC. We already know that he is quite a good climber. But he'd have to lose 8-10 kgs and potentially waste an entire season. And who knows if he could then return to the rider that he was?


Okay so your argument is: Sagan, Terpstra, Cancellera etc could all have won/win/podium/top 10 GT's, if only they commit to it by taking a risk and potentially sacrificing success in their areas of brilliance.

It's just a matter of dropping the weight, and hey presto, a classics beast changes into a GC beast.

My argument is: there's no plausible way to drop that much weight, whilst maintaining/gaining power without cheating. Whenever those kinds of transformations have happened in the past, it's always been a massive, massive red flag for doping - for mine, Jalabert and Armstrong are the two big standouts, it looked bloody suss back then, and it turned out to be bloody suss once we got all the facts.

And many of those riders simply don't want to take all those extra drugs to lose that weight and keep it off. There are many more health risks to consider.


Since this is largely about Thomas, just a bit on his own weight loss (if the figures can be believed)

2011 - (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/8606668/Tour-de-France-2011-Geraint-Thomas-QandA.html) - 71kg

2013 - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraint_Thomas (but ultimately from Sky own website at that time) - 70kg

2018 - (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/29/geraint-thomas-seals-tour-de-france-title-paris-team-sky-chris-froome) - 67.6kg

So clearly he's lost a bit over the years but I doubt he was ever 85kg!
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Re: Re:

08 Aug 2018 17:02

samhocking wrote:Well off the world pursuit champions that come to mind that also did very well on road in ITT and TTT I can immediately think of the following names. I'm sure there are plenty of others who've crossed over as it's an obvious choice to do well in ITT if you're a pursuit champion.

AUS
Jack Bobridge - UCI Road World Under–23 Championships ITT, National ITT Champion, 5th UCI Worlds ITT
Melissa Hoskins - 2nd UCI World Team time trial
Stuart OGrady - 1st Tour de France ITT 2013, 2nd Commonwealth Games ITT
Luke Roberts - 1st Endenhoven TTT
Brett Lancaster - 2nd World Team Time Trial Championships, 1st Junior National Time Trial Championships, 3rd Eindhoven Team Time Trial
Bradley McGee - 1st ITT Tour de Suisse, 1st Giro ITT

GBR
Thomas - we already know
Wiggins - we already know
Owain Doull - 3rd UCI TTT Championships, 2nd National Under–23 ITT, 2nd National ITT
Joanna Rowsell - 1st National Time Trial Championships
Chris Boardman - we already know
Graeme Obree - we already know

RUS
Viatcheslav Ekimov - 1st Time trial, Olympic Games etc etc

FR
Jeannie Longo - 1st World Time Trial Championship etc etc

NZ
Sarah Ulmer - 1st National Time Trial Championships, 1st ITT Oceania Games

HOL
Leontien van Moorsel - 1st Olympic ITT x 2, 1st National ITT, 2nd Commonwealth Games etc etc

US
Chloé Dygert - 1st World Junior ITT
I saw PCMG already called you on your BS.

Please do a better google search next time you're called on your bluff.

The only one who came from track and was a DECENT TT'er on your list is Brad McGee. He tried to do GC, didnt need to shed KG's because he wasnt 'fat' like your Brit heroes, and did one decent Giro, 2003 or so?

Stop trolling people who have actually seen the people on your 'list' race.

Boardman was good, very good, at PROLOGUES by the way.

That's what track riders who switch to road racing normally are good at.
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Re: Re:

08 Aug 2018 17:57

Fearless Greg Lemond wrote:
samhocking wrote:Well off the world pursuit champions that come to mind that also did very well on road in ITT and TTT I can immediately think of the following names. I'm sure there are plenty of others who've crossed over as it's an obvious choice to do well in ITT if you're a pursuit champion.

AUS
Jack Bobridge - UCI Road World Under–23 Championships ITT, National ITT Champion, 5th UCI Worlds ITT
Melissa Hoskins - 2nd UCI World Team time trial
Stuart OGrady - 1st Tour de France ITT 2013, 2nd Commonwealth Games ITT
Luke Roberts - 1st Endenhoven TTT
Brett Lancaster - 2nd World Team Time Trial Championships, 1st Junior National Time Trial Championships, 3rd Eindhoven Team Time Trial
Bradley McGee - 1st ITT Tour de Suisse, 1st Giro ITT

GBR
Thomas - we already know
Wiggins - we already know
Owain Doull - 3rd UCI TTT Championships, 2nd National Under–23 ITT, 2nd National ITT
Joanna Rowsell - 1st National Time Trial Championships
Chris Boardman - we already know
Graeme Obree - we already know

RUS
Viatcheslav Ekimov - 1st Time trial, Olympic Games etc etc

FR
Jeannie Longo - 1st World Time Trial Championship etc etc

NZ
Sarah Ulmer - 1st National Time Trial Championships, 1st ITT Oceania Games

HOL
Leontien van Moorsel - 1st Olympic ITT x 2, 1st National ITT, 2nd Commonwealth Games etc etc

US
Chloé Dygert - 1st World Junior ITT
I saw PCMG already called you on your BS.

Please do a better google search next time you're called on your bluff.

The only one who came from track and was a DECENT TT'er on your list is Brad McGee. He tried to do GC, didnt need to shed KG's because he wasnt 'fat' like your Brit heroes, and did one decent Giro, 2003 or so?

Stop trolling people who have actually seen the people on your 'list' race.

Boardman was good, very good, at PROLOGUES by the way.

That's what track riders who switch to road racing normally are good at.



Says who?? any proof of that?
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08 Aug 2018 21:40

Well of those very names provided by Mr Hocking, Lancaster won a 1km prologue in the Giro, McGee won a longer prologue in the tour, Boardman won a prologue in the tour (or was it 2)? You could add Dennis to that list too.

It is clearly an area of specialisation for trackies>>road.

The other really common one is sprint train and sometimes even sprinter - Gaviria, Viviani, Cavendish etc.

Less common is classics rider.

Much less common - rare - is climber/GC rider.
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Re: Geraint Thomas, the next british hope

08 Aug 2018 22:51

So ... why not cut to the chase, here?

What’s was G’s “regimen” approaching and during the Tour?

Names of methods, names of drugs, frequency, duration, effect?

And why no positive tests? Who is protecting him? Why?
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Re: Re:

08 Aug 2018 22:58

rick james wrote:Says who?? any proof of that?


Riders with pursuit experience that have top 10'd a GT prologue in the last 10 years:

Tour: (2 prologues total, 2010 and 2012)
Bradley Wiggins - 2nd, 2012
Sylvain Chavanel - 3rd 2012
Brett Lancaster - 6th 2012
Patrick Gretsch - 7th 2012
Tony Martin - 2nd 2010
David Millar - 3rd 2010
Geraint Thomas - 5th 2010
Tyler Farrar - 6th 2010

Giro: (1 prologue total, 2012)
Taylor Phinney - 1st
Geraint Thomas - 2nd
Alex Rasmussen - 3rd
Brett Lancaster - 7th
Jesse Sergent - 9th

Vuelta: (1 prologue total, 2009)
Tyler Farrar - 3rd
Jens Mouris - 4th

Then there's guys like Patrick Bevin, Victor Campenaerts, Luke Durbridge, Manuel Quinziato, Rohan Dennis, Alex Dowsett, Alex Edmondson, Vasil Kiryienka, Tom Bohli, Mark Cavendish, Leigh Howard, Mark Renshaw, Greg Henderson and Michael Rogers who have top 10 results in prologues from other World Tour stage races.

I don't know... it's almost as if being the among the fastest in the world in a 4km TT on a flat track makes riders extremely well suited for the shortest TTs found in road cycling. Who knew?

Oh, and would you look at that... Out of that entire list, only three have been top 10 in a GT. One is Mick Rogers the doper. The others are our favourite British boys. I bet there's less than a handful of even top 25s between the rest of them. Because the pursuit is such a great indicator of GT talent.
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09 Aug 2018 08:11

I was under the impression that this discussion was around team pursuit riders? If we are talking about individual pursuit medalists who have gone on to be good TT riders or GC riders there are a few names missing from these lists. Notably:

Fausto Coppi (GT winner)
Hugo Koblet (GT winner)
Jacques Anquetil (GT winner)
Albert Bouvet
Knut Knudsen
Francesco Moser (GT winner)
Ferdinand Bracke (GT winner)
Ole Ritter
Roy Schuiten
Ercole Baldini (GT winner)
Charly Grosskost
Stefan Kung, although still young he's looking good.


I'm sure I've missed some.
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Re:

09 Aug 2018 08:58

King Boonen wrote:I was under the impression that this discussion was around team pursuit riders? If we are talking about individual pursuit medalists who have gone on to be good TT riders or GC riders there are a few names missing from these lists. Notably:

Fausto Coppi (GT winner)
Hugo Koblet (GT winner)
Jacques Anquetil (GT winner)
Albert Bouvet
Knut Knudsen
Francesco Moser (GT winner)
Ferdinand Bracke (GT winner)
Ole Ritter
Roy Schuiten
Ercole Baldini (GT winner)
Charly Grosskost
Stefan Kung, although still young he's looking good.


I'm sure I've missed some.

Most of those guys, and the GT winners especially, were primarily road racers their entire career and did pursuits on the side because they were good enough to medal at Olympics and Worlds without specializing. Speaking of specialization, apart from Küng all of those riders are from decades ago, before riders pretty much had to specialize in one particular discipline to be the very best at it.
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Re: Re:

09 Aug 2018 09:12

Saint Unix wrote:
King Boonen wrote:I was under the impression that this discussion was around team pursuit riders? If we are talking about individual pursuit medalists who have gone on to be good TT riders or GC riders there are a few names missing from these lists. Notably:

Fausto Coppi (GT winner)
Hugo Koblet (GT winner)
Jacques Anquetil (GT winner)
Albert Bouvet
Knut Knudsen
Francesco Moser (GT winner)
Ferdinand Bracke (GT winner)
Ole Ritter
Roy Schuiten
Ercole Baldini (GT winner)
Charly Grosskost
Stefan Kung, although still young he's looking good.


I'm sure I've missed some.

Most of those guys, and the GT winners especially, were primarily road racers their entire career and did pursuits on the side because they were good enough to medal at Olympics and Worlds without specializing. Speaking of specialization, apart from Küng all of those riders are from decades ago, before riders pretty much had to specialize in one particular discipline to be the very best at it.


I get the feeling that this whole conversation is just an exercise in goal-post shifting and one true Scotsmanism.
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09 Aug 2018 09:16

The conversation is about pursuit prowess being a predictor of GT success. Everything else is just the angle each particular forum is using to approach that question.
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09 Aug 2018 09:28

G. Thomas - Tdf winner, I did not see that coming. The point is that Sky have performed another miraculous transformation. Team, drugs and a free pass.
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Re: Re:

09 Aug 2018 10:03

King Boonen wrote:I get the feeling that this whole conversation is just an exercise in goal-post shifting and one true Scotsmanism.

The argument is that riders whose main focus is on the track can go from the track to doing well on the road, but historically speaking, successful road racers that founded their careers on their big engines used to be able to go to the track and win medals in pursuits, rather than the other way around.

Rather than goal post-shifting and one true Scotsmanism, using Coppi, Anquetil and Moser to argue that pursuit riders can do well in GTs is a strawman. The fact is that GT riders used to do well in pursuits, at least 50-60 years ago. Cycling has changed a hell of a lot since then, so in reality it's not really a discussion worth having either way.
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Re:

09 Aug 2018 10:44

hrotha wrote:The conversation is about pursuit prowess being a predictor of GT success. Everything else is just the angle each particular forum is using to approach that question.


He's not a forum user but Cyrille Guimard was of this opinion according to the recent Hinault biography.
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