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Doping In Athletics

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Re: Re:

16 Feb 2017 19:07

DirtyWorks wrote:Yaco,

you are confusing tests. A biopassport test requires blood samples. The IAAF does almost none of those. The samples they are retesting are frozen urine samples, not related to the bio-passport in anyway.

Under the worst conditions, the retests find things that were found at the time of the test but not sanctioned. We know now IAAF officials would then demand bribes for never testing someone positive.

At this point, testing seems to be an opportunity to demand bribes. Coe knows nothing. At all.


Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.
yaco
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Re: Re:

17 Feb 2017 05:24

yaco wrote:Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.


Haha. That tells you the IAAF COMPLETELY ignored her irregularities the first time around. What a joke.

How many more irregularities have they let pass?
User avatar DirtyWorks
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Re: Re:

17 Feb 2017 09:43

yaco wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:Yaco,

you are confusing tests. A biopassport test requires blood samples. The IAAF does almost none of those. The samples they are retesting are frozen urine samples, not related to the bio-passport in anyway.

Under the worst conditions, the retests find things that were found at the time of the test but not sanctioned. We know now IAAF officials would then demand bribes for never testing someone positive.

At this point, testing seems to be an opportunity to demand bribes. Coe knows nothing. At all.


Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.

There's a lot on Savinova in the McLaren report. Per the ARD recordings, she discusses her use of the steriod oxandrolone and other PEDs, along with the effective doses, glow times & and who to pay off to avert a positive test. In fact, the report concludes that "Ms. Savinova-
Farsonova has an in-depth knowledge of doping regimes, dosages, physiological effects
of doping and new PEDs."

On her ABP; from the report it sounds like that after the ARD documentary WADA went back and examined her profile where the steriod module appeared normal, but the hematological module showed anomalies:

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf
Nomad
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Re: Re:

17 Feb 2017 18:33

Nomad wrote:
yaco wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:Yaco,

you are confusing tests. A biopassport test requires blood samples. The IAAF does almost none of those. The samples they are retesting are frozen urine samples, not related to the bio-passport in anyway.

Under the worst conditions, the retests find things that were found at the time of the test but not sanctioned. We know now IAAF officials would then demand bribes for never testing someone positive.

At this point, testing seems to be an opportunity to demand bribes. Coe knows nothing. At all.


Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.

There's a lot on Savinova in the McLaren report. Per the ARD recordings, she discusses her use of the steriod oxandrolone and other PEDs, along with the effective doses, glow times & and who to pay off to avert a positive test. In fact, the report concludes that "Ms. Savinova-
Farsonova has an in-depth knowledge of doping regimes, dosages, physiological effects
of doping and new PEDs."

On her ABP; from the report it sounds like that after the ARD documentary WADA went back and examined her profile where the steriod module appeared normal, but the hematological module showed anomalies:

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf


That's fine - I still have my reservations about the accuracy of ABP profiles - There have been a few cases where the cases have been thrown out at Anti-Doping Tribunals.
yaco
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Re: Re:

18 Feb 2017 05:58

yaco wrote:
That's fine - I still have my reservations about the accuracy of ABP profiles - There have been a few cases where the cases have been thrown out at Anti-Doping Tribunals.


Well, you shouldn't. With enough blood samples, the Bayesian method is excellent. A nice example and explanation is here: http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/57/5/762.full

Pay careful attention to this graphic and the explanation: https://d9aqs07uebq07.cloudfront.net/content/clinchem/57/5/762/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1 BTW, you should notice they found unenforced positives.

It's not the science, it's the people.

One facet of the Russian scandal was RUSADA officials changing scores in ADAMS. (Covered in one of Seppelt's many stories) We know the IAAF was demanding, and getting, bribes to never test positive. We know cycling seemed to have done something similar.

The science is sound. It's the people running the system that are the problem.
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Re: Re:

18 Feb 2017 15:50

DirtyWorks wrote:
yaco wrote:
That's fine - I still have my reservations about the accuracy of ABP profiles - There have been a few cases where the cases have been thrown out at Anti-Doping Tribunals.


Well, you shouldn't. With enough blood samples, the Bayesian method is excellent. A nice example and explanation is here: http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/57/5/762.full

Pay careful attention to this graphic and the explanation: https://d9aqs07uebq07.cloudfront.net/content/clinchem/57/5/762/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1 BTW, you should notice they found unenforced positives.

It's not the science, it's the people.

One facet of the Russian scandal was RUSADA officials changing scores in ADAMS. (Covered in one of Seppelt's many stories) We know the IAAF was demanding, and getting, bribes to never test positive. We know cycling seemed to have done something similar.

The science is sound. It's the people running the system that are the problem.


From memory Kreuziger and Serge Henao beat the BSP - You need to have the whole system working - Not much help if one part of the system fails.
yaco
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18 Feb 2017 20:41

Yaco, the BSP you refer to in the post above - should that read BPS? As in ABPS. If not what is BSP? Also, please excuse my ignorance if I am wrong. Cheers.
Norks74
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Re:

19 Feb 2017 10:24

Norks74 wrote:Yaco, the BSP you refer to in the post above - should that read BPS? As in ABPS. If not what is BSP? Also, please excuse my ignorance if I am wrong. Cheers.


Should be ABP - Mixing up my terminology.
yaco
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19 Feb 2017 11:58

Thanks yaco - I'm just learning all the different terminology used in this subject. Appreciate your help.
Norks74
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Re: Re:

19 Feb 2017 12:45

DirtyWorks wrote:
yaco wrote:Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.


Haha. That tells you the IAAF COMPLETELY ignored her irregularities the first time around. What a joke.

How many more irregularities have they let pass?

I don't think they ignored her irregularities the first time around...she simply didn't trip her ABP for whatever reasons. According to the McLaren report, it's after the ARD recordings that her BP was examined. 2 out of 3 WADA experts concluded that pursuant to her hematological module, she was "likely doping" with the 2011 WC blood test looking "highly suspicious." She also was implicated in her discussion with Stepanova of the use of Oxandrolone and the covering up of positive drug test(s)

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

And how many irregularities have they let pass with the Russian athletes? I doubt any as
Russian distance runners from the 800m up through the marathon and race walkers, from 2009 onwards, lead the World in the number of biological passport sanctions with *36* (Morocco is 2nd with 10, and Turkey third with 9). Interestingly, the number of U.S. and UK runners sanctioned? None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

And some of these Russian athletes are big fish who tripped the hematological module of their ABP long before the ARD documentary became known. Here's some pretty big names who lost their medals/titles due to passport sanctions:

> Liliya Shobukhova - 1 London & 3 Chicago marathon wins (2009 thru 2012), and 2nd fastest all-time women's marathon time (2012).
> Yuliya Zaripova - Olympic gold (London) & WC gold (2011) in the steeplechase (she also had a 2012 sample retest positive for Turinabolan).
> Valeriy Borchin - 2xWC (2009/2011) in men's race walking.

So, if they were going to ignore irregularities why not ignore the aforementioned athletes? In fact, why 36 ABP sanctions that leads the World by leaps & bounds?
Nomad
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2017 12:25

Nomad wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:
yaco wrote:Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.


Haha. That tells you the IAAF COMPLETELY ignored her irregularities the first time around. What a joke.

How many more irregularities have they let pass?

I don't think they ignored her irregularities the first time around...she simply didn't trip her ABP for whatever reasons. According to the McLaren report, it's after the ARD recordings that her BP was examined. 2 out of 3 WADA experts concluded that pursuant to her hematological module, she was "likely doping" with the 2011 WC blood test looking "highly suspicious." She also was implicated in her discussion with Stepanova of the use of Oxandrolone and the covering up of positive drug test(s)

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

And how many irregularities have they let pass with the Russian athletes? I doubt any as
Russian distance runners from the 800m up through the marathon and race walkers, from 2009 onwards, lead the World in the number of biological passport sanctions with *36* (Morocco is 2nd with 10, and Turkey third with 9). Interestingly, the number of U.S. and UK runners sanctioned? None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

And some of these Russian athletes are big fish who tripped the hematological module of their ABP long before the ARD documentary became known. Here's some pretty big names who lost their medals/titles due to passport sanctions:

> Liliya Shobukhova - 1 London & 3 Chicago marathon wins (2009 thru 2012), and 2nd fastest all-time women's marathon time (2012).
> Yuliya Zaripova - Olympic gold (London) & WC gold (2011) in the steeplechase (she also had a 2012 sample retest positive for Turinabolan).
> Valeriy Borchin - 2xWC (2009/2011) in men's race walking.

So, if they were going to ignore irregularities why not ignore the aforementioned athletes? In fact, why 36 ABP sanctions that leads the World by leaps & bounds?

If the highest number of violations is 36 and the next best 10 that's an issue...the UK and USA having zero...thats not interesting it just highlights corruption...Paula case in point.
So they are certainly ignoring athletes/countries/passports and violations in general- or just plain dumb. I'll leave you figure it out.
noddy69
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2017 12:46

noddy69 wrote:
Nomad wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:
yaco wrote:Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.


Haha. That tells you the IAAF COMPLETELY ignored her irregularities the first time around. What a joke.

How many more irregularities have they let pass?

I don't think they ignored her irregularities the first time around...she simply didn't trip her ABP for whatever reasons. According to the McLaren report, it's after the ARD recordings that her BP was examined. 2 out of 3 WADA experts concluded that pursuant to her hematological module, she was "likely doping" with the 2011 WC blood test looking "highly suspicious." She also was implicated in her discussion with Stepanova of the use of Oxandrolone and the covering up of positive drug test(s)

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

And how many irregularities have they let pass with the Russian athletes? I doubt any as
Russian distance runners from the 800m up through the marathon and race walkers, from 2009 onwards, lead the World in the number of biological passport sanctions with *36* (Morocco is 2nd with 10, and Turkey third with 9). Interestingly, the number of U.S. and UK runners sanctioned? None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

And some of these Russian athletes are big fish who tripped the hematological module of their ABP long before the ARD documentary became known. Here's some pretty big names who lost their medals/titles due to passport sanctions:

> Liliya Shobukhova - 1 London & 3 Chicago marathon wins (2009 thru 2012), and 2nd fastest all-time women's marathon time (2012).
> Yuliya Zaripova - Olympic gold (London) & WC gold (2011) in the steeplechase (she also had a 2012 sample retest positive for Turinabolan).
> Valeriy Borchin - 2xWC (2009/2011) in men's race walking.

So, if they were going to ignore irregularities why not ignore the aforementioned athletes? In fact, why 36 ABP sanctions that leads the World by leaps & bounds?

If the highest number of violations is 36 and the next best 10 that's an issue...the UK and USA having zero...thats not interesting it just highlights corruption...Paula case in point.
So they are certainly ignoring athletes/countries/passports and violations in general- or just plain dumb. I'll leave you figure it out.

Really? WADA's ignoring ABP violations from U.S. runners while nailing Russians right & left? What proof do you have that the U.S. runners are tripping their ABP's and it's being ignored?
Nomad
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2017 13:32

Nomad wrote:
noddy69 wrote:
Nomad wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:
yaco wrote:Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.


Haha. That tells you the IAAF COMPLETELY ignored her irregularities the first time around. What a joke.

How many more irregularities have they let pass?

I don't think they ignored her irregularities the first time around...she simply didn't trip her ABP for whatever reasons. According to the McLaren report, it's after the ARD recordings that her BP was examined. 2 out of 3 WADA experts concluded that pursuant to her hematological module, she was "likely doping" with the 2011 WC blood test looking "highly suspicious." She also was implicated in her discussion with Stepanova of the use of Oxandrolone and the covering up of positive drug test(s)

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

And how many irregularities have they let pass with the Russian athletes? I doubt any as
Russian distance runners from the 800m up through the marathon and race walkers, from 2009 onwards, lead the World in the number of biological passport sanctions with *36* (Morocco is 2nd with 10, and Turkey third with 9). Interestingly, the number of U.S. and UK runners sanctioned? None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

And some of these Russian athletes are big fish who tripped the hematological module of their ABP long before the ARD documentary became known. Here's some pretty big names who lost their medals/titles due to passport sanctions:

> Liliya Shobukhova - 1 London & 3 Chicago marathon wins (2009 thru 2012), and 2nd fastest all-time women's marathon time (2012).
> Yuliya Zaripova - Olympic gold (London) & WC gold (2011) in the steeplechase (she also had a 2012 sample retest positive for Turinabolan).
> Valeriy Borchin - 2xWC (2009/2011) in men's race walking.

So, if they were going to ignore irregularities why not ignore the aforementioned athletes? In fact, why 36 ABP sanctions that leads the World by leaps & bounds?

If the highest number of violations is 36 and the next best 10 that's an issue...the UK and USA having zero...thats not interesting it just highlights corruption...Paula case in point.
So they are certainly ignoring athletes/countries/passports and violations in general- or just plain dumb. I'll leave you figure it out.

Really? WADA's ignoring ABP violations from U.S. runners while nailing Russians right & left? What proof do you have that the U.S. runners are tripping their ABP's and it's being ignored?

Proof . I'd need access to the data so lets go with just plain dumb then as there is no way in hell there are zero violations when a state sponsored programme in Russia throws up loads when it suits Athletics to follow the narrative of catching drugs cheats. Majority after the scandal broke.
Its not effective , but clearly when there is a will there is a way it can be. If you only take a law of averages approach logically someone from each country should be banned by now...the USA should have more than one, thy dont.....the question to you then is why is that ?
noddy69
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2017 15:16

noddy69 wrote:
Nomad wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:
yaco wrote:Well the link in the thread states Savinova was done for ABP irregularities.


Haha. That tells you the IAAF COMPLETELY ignored her irregularities the first time around. What a joke.

How many more irregularities have they let pass?

I don't think they ignored her irregularities the first time around...she simply didn't trip her ABP for whatever reasons. According to the McLaren report, it's after the ARD recordings that her BP was examined. 2 out of 3 WADA experts concluded that pursuant to her hematological module, she was "likely doping" with the 2011 WC blood test looking "highly suspicious." She also was implicated in her discussion with Stepanova of the use of Oxandrolone and the covering up of positive drug test(s)

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

And how many irregularities have they let pass with the Russian athletes? I doubt any as
Russian distance runners from the 800m up through the marathon and race walkers, from 2009 onwards, lead the World in the number of biological passport sanctions with *36* (Morocco is 2nd with 10, and Turkey third with 9). Interestingly, the number of U.S. and UK runners sanctioned? None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

And some of these Russian athletes are big fish who tripped the hematological module of their ABP long before the ARD documentary became known. Here's some pretty big names who lost their medals/titles due to passport sanctions:

> Liliya Shobukhova - 1 London & 3 Chicago marathon wins (2009 thru 2012), and 2nd fastest all-time women's marathon time (2012).
> Yuliya Zaripova - Olympic gold (London) & WC gold (2011) in the steeplechase (she also had a 2012 sample retest positive for Turinabolan).
> Valeriy Borchin - 2xWC (2009/2011) in men's race walking.

So, if they were going to ignore irregularities why not ignore the aforementioned athletes? In fact, why 36 ABP sanctions that leads the World by leaps & bounds?

If the highest number of violations is 36 and the next best 10 that's an issue...the UK and USA having zero...thats not interesting it just highlights corruption...Paula case in point.
So they are certainly ignoring athletes/countries/passports and violations in general- or just plain dumb. I'll leave you figure it out.


And Cyborg of MMA who failed a doping test by USADA, went to an Anti-Doping Tribunal and was granted a back-dated TUE from many months ago - USA and TUE'S is a joke aided and abetted by USADA - Simon Yates must be crying in his sleep.
yaco
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Re: Doping In Athletics

21 Feb 2017 11:38

@ yaco

That's right...you don't have access to the data, so you're just theorizing a conspiracy. There are no ABP sanctions for the U.S. runners, as well as runners from the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries, and even Mexico. Additionally, there also aren't any sanctions for runners from Kenya or Ethiopia. However, they're not part of the ABP program currently (due to no WADA-accredited Labs in the region to conduct the blood tests), so all bets are off for them (btw, they're the ones winning most of the medals/titles at major competitions).

So, your position is that WADA would ignore ABP irregularities from athletes from the U.S., UK, France, Germany, Japan, etc, and only recognize irregularities and sanction athletes from Russia (36), Morocco (10), Turkey (9), Ukraine (7), Spain (2), Portugal (2), Saudi Arabia (2) and few other countries? And why would WADA sanction a big fish & National hero like Marta Dominguez of Spain (multiple European & World Champion) and ignore anomalies with top icons from the U.S. & other countries? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You're also wrong on the majority of the Russian ABP sanctions occuring after the scandal surfaced - well over 50% of them occurred before. And maybe some of the runners from the countries that have no sanctions are microdosing within the parameters of their ABP, or then again perhaps most are competing clean. I don't know and you certainly don't either. But what's evident is that many of the Russians were tripping their passports with full throttle 02-vector doping. For example, in the Shobukhova case WADA stated this:

"The ABP expert panel concluded that the athlete’s abnormal profile was likely the result
of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with
“massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion
strategy. One expert considered that two of the athlete’s hemoglobin values obtained in
October 2009 and October 2011, in strict correlation with the Chicago Marathon, which
Ms. Shobukhova won both years on 11 October 2009 and 09 October 2011, respectively,
were so high that they should be considered a medical emergency."

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

A "medical emergency?!" (i.e., polythecymia)...Unbelievable.

Facts are facts - and there are no ABP sanctions on runners from the U.S. and the aforementioned other countries. If your conspiracy platform is that WADA's ignoring irregularities with these country's athletes, then you're casting aspersions on WADA without any proof.
Nomad
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Re: Doping In Athletics

21 Feb 2017 13:55

Nomad wrote:@ yaco

That's right...you don't have access to the data, so you're just theorizing a conspiracy. There are no ABP sanctions for the U.S. runners, as well as runners from the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries, and even Mexico. Additionally, there also aren't any sanctions for runners from Kenya or Ethiopia. However, they're not part of the ABP program currently (due to no WADA-accredited Labs in the region to conduct the blood tests), so all bets are off for them (btw, they're the ones winning most of the medals/titles at major competitions).

So, your position is that WADA would ignore ABP irregularities from athletes from the U.S., UK, France, Germany, Japan, etc, and only recognize irregularities and sanction athletes from Russia (36), Morocco (10), Turkey (9), Ukraine (7), Spain (2), Portugal (2), Saudi Arabia (2) and few other countries? And why would WADA sanction a big fish & National hero like Marta Dominguez of Spain (multiple European & World Champion) and ignore anomalies with top icons from the U.S. & other countries? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You're also wrong on the majority of the Russian ABP sanctions occuring after the scandal surfaced - well over 50% of them occurred before. And maybe some of the runners from the countries that have no sanctions are microdosing within the parameters of their ABP, or then again perhaps most are competing clean. I don't know and you certainly don't either. But what's evident is that many of the Russians were tripping their passports with full throttle 02-vector doping. For example, in the Shobukhova case WADA stated this:

"The ABP expert panel concluded that the athlete’s abnormal profile was likely the result
of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with
“massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion
strategy. One expert considered that two of the athlete’s hemoglobin values obtained in
October 2009 and October 2011, in strict correlation with the Chicago Marathon, which
Ms. Shobukhova won both years on 11 October 2009 and 09 October 2011, respectively,
were so high that they should be considered a medical emergency."

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

A "medical emergency?!" (i.e., polythecymia)...Unbelievable.

Facts are facts - and there are no ABP sanctions on runners from the U.S. and the aforementioned other countries. If your conspiracy platform is that WADA's ignoring irregularities with these country's athletes, then you're casting aspersions on WADA without any proof.


I have seen the numbers for TUE's through the Fancy Bear's leaks - And the USA had the highest number of TUE's by far.
yaco
Member
 
Posts: 1,787
Joined: 20 Jun 2015 17:57

Re: Doping In Athletics

21 Feb 2017 14:01

Nomad wrote:@ yaco

That's right...you don't have access to the data, so you're just theorizing a conspiracy. There are no ABP sanctions for the U.S. runners, as well as runners from the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries, and even Mexico. Additionally, there also aren't any sanctions for runners from Kenya or Ethiopia. However, they're not part of the ABP program currently (due to no WADA-accredited Labs in the region to conduct the blood tests), so all bets are off for them (btw, they're the ones winning most of the medals/titles at major competitions).

So, your position is that WADA would ignore ABP irregularities from athletes from the U.S., UK, France, Germany, Japan, etc, and only recognize irregularities and sanction athletes from Russia (36), Morocco (10), Turkey (9), Ukraine (7), Spain (2), Portugal (2), Saudi Arabia (2) and few other countries? And why would WADA sanction a big fish & National hero like Marta Dominguez of Spain (multiple European & World Champion) and ignore anomalies with top icons from the U.S. & other countries? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You're also wrong on the majority of the Russian ABP sanctions occuring after the scandal surfaced - well over 50% of them occurred before. And maybe some of the runners from the countries that have no sanctions are microdosing within the parameters of their ABP, or then again perhaps most are competing clean. I don't know and you certainly don't either. But what's evident is that many of the Russians were tripping their passports with full throttle 02-vector doping. For example, in the Shobukhova case WADA stated this:

"The ABP expert panel concluded that the athlete’s abnormal profile was likely the result
of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with
“massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion
strategy. One expert considered that two of the athlete’s hemoglobin values obtained in
October 2009 and October 2011, in strict correlation with the Chicago Marathon, which
Ms. Shobukhova won both years on 11 October 2009 and 09 October 2011, respectively,
were so high that they should be considered a medical emergency."

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

A "medical emergency?!" (i.e., polythecymia)...Unbelievable.

Facts are facts - and there are no ABP sanctions on runners from the U.S. and the aforementioned other countries. If your conspiracy platform is that WADA's ignoring irregularities with these country's athletes, then you're casting aspersions on WADA without any proof.


You got my post wrong and possibly confused me with another poster- My posts have questioned the reliability and accuracy of ABP sanctions in some cases - I am yet to be convinced that ABP irregularities are 100% watertight - It's safe to say WADA has issues,especially if you read the material into corruption in the IAAF to hide and ultimately blackmail athletes to have doping violations excused - WADA had involvement in this case.
yaco
Member
 
Posts: 1,787
Joined: 20 Jun 2015 17:57

Re: Doping In Athletics

21 Feb 2017 19:05

yaco wrote:
Nomad wrote:@ yaco

That's right...you don't have access to the data, so you're just theorizing a conspiracy. There are no ABP sanctions for the U.S. runners, as well as runners from the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries, and even Mexico. Additionally, there also aren't any sanctions for runners from Kenya or Ethiopia. However, they're not part of the ABP program currently (due to no WADA-accredited Labs in the region to conduct the blood tests), so all bets are off for them (btw, they're the ones winning most of the medals/titles at major competitions).

So, your position is that WADA would ignore ABP irregularities from athletes from the U.S., UK, France, Germany, Japan, etc, and only recognize irregularities and sanction athletes from Russia (36), Morocco (10), Turkey (9), Ukraine (7), Spain (2), Portugal (2), Saudi Arabia (2) and few other countries? And why would WADA sanction a big fish & National hero like Marta Dominguez of Spain (multiple European & World Champion) and ignore anomalies with top icons from the U.S. & other countries? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You're also wrong on the majority of the Russian ABP sanctions occuring after the scandal surfaced - well over 50% of them occurred before. And maybe some of the runners from the countries that have no sanctions are microdosing within the parameters of their ABP, or then again perhaps most are competing clean. I don't know and you certainly don't either. But what's evident is that many of the Russians were tripping their passports with full throttle 02-vector doping. For example, in the Shobukhova case WADA stated this:

"The ABP expert panel concluded that the athlete’s abnormal profile was likely the result
of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with
“massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion
strategy. One expert considered that two of the athlete’s hemoglobin values obtained in
October 2009 and October 2011, in strict correlation with the Chicago Marathon, which
Ms. Shobukhova won both years on 11 October 2009 and 09 October 2011, respectively,
were so high that they should be considered a medical emergency."

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

A "medical emergency?!" (i.e., polythecymia)...Unbelievable.

Facts are facts - and there are no ABP sanctions on runners from the U.S. and the aforementioned other countries. If your conspiracy platform is that WADA's ignoring irregularities with these country's athletes, then you're casting aspersions on WADA without any proof.


You got my post wrong and possibly confused me with another poster- My posts have questioned the reliability and accuracy of ABP sanctions in some cases - I am yet to be convinced that ABP irregularities are 100% watertight - It's safe to say WADA has issues,especially if you read the material into corruption in the IAAF to hide and ultimately blackmail athletes to have doping violations excused - WADA had involvement in this case.

My apologies...my post was meant for "noddy69" (I was trying to crank out a quick response on my mobile and the reply page was filled up).
Nomad
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Posts: 204
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Doping In Athletics

21 Feb 2017 20:38

Nomad wrote:@ yaco

That's right...you don't have access to the data, so you're just theorizing a conspiracy. There are no ABP sanctions for the U.S. runners, as well as runners from the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries, and even Mexico. Additionally, there also aren't any sanctions for runners from Kenya or Ethiopia. However, they're not part of the ABP program currently (due to no WADA-accredited Labs in the region to conduct the blood tests), so all bets are off for them (btw, they're the ones winning most of the medals/titles at major competitions).

So, your position is that WADA would ignore ABP irregularities from athletes from the U.S., UK, France, Germany, Japan, etc, and only recognize irregularities and sanction athletes from Russia (36), Morocco (10), Turkey (9), Ukraine (7), Spain (2), Portugal (2), Saudi Arabia (2) and few other countries? And why would WADA sanction a big fish & National hero like Marta Dominguez of Spain (multiple European & World Champion) and ignore anomalies with top icons from the U.S. & other countries? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You're also wrong on the majority of the Russian ABP sanctions occuring after the scandal surfaced - well over 50% of them occurred before. And maybe some of the runners from the countries that have no sanctions are microdosing within the parameters of their ABP, or then again perhaps most are competing clean. I don't know and you certainly don't either. But what's evident is that many of the Russians were tripping their passports with full throttle 02-vector doping. For example, in the Shobukhova case WADA stated this:

"The ABP expert panel concluded that the athlete’s abnormal profile was likely the result
of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with
“massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion
strategy. One expert considered that two of the athlete’s hemoglobin values obtained in
October 2009 and October 2011, in strict correlation with the Chicago Marathon, which
Ms. Shobukhova won both years on 11 October 2009 and 09 October 2011, respectively,
were so high that they should be considered a medical emergency."

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

A "medical emergency?!" (i.e., polythecymia)...Unbelievable.

Facts are facts - and there are no ABP sanctions on runners from the U.S. and the aforementioned other countries. If your conspiracy platform is that WADA's ignoring irregularities with these country's athletes, then you're casting aspersions on WADA without any proof.

I am asking you why there are none ? Do you believe the athletes are competing clean ? Do you believe TUE's are used to hide anomolies ?
Lets take Radcliffs case- clear cut anomolies in her passport but nothing done. Why ?

Athletics is rotten to the core and its not just the athletes.

oh and yes I am putting it out there that WADA are not doing there job nor are UKAD or USADA or any other bodies that should be properly policing doping.
The TUE system as a form of legalised cheating is out of control. As you seem to be focused on the US I'' assume you may be American- do you not find it amazing that a country who's athletes are so sick win so much ?
noddy69
Member
 
Posts: 532
Joined: 04 Oct 2011 07:37

Re: Doping In Athletics

22 Feb 2017 11:53

noddy69 wrote:
Nomad wrote:@ yaco

That's right...you don't have access to the data, so you're just theorizing a conspiracy. There are no ABP sanctions for the U.S. runners, as well as runners from the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries, and even Mexico. Additionally, there also aren't any sanctions for runners from Kenya or Ethiopia. However, they're not part of the ABP program currently (due to no WADA-accredited Labs in the region to conduct the blood tests), so all bets are off for them (btw, they're the ones winning most of the medals/titles at major competitions).

So, your position is that WADA would ignore ABP irregularities from athletes from the U.S., UK, France, Germany, Japan, etc, and only recognize irregularities and sanction athletes from Russia (36), Morocco (10), Turkey (9), Ukraine (7), Spain (2), Portugal (2), Saudi Arabia (2) and few other countries? And why would WADA sanction a big fish & National hero like Marta Dominguez of Spain (multiple European & World Champion) and ignore anomalies with top icons from the U.S. & other countries? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You're also wrong on the majority of the Russian ABP sanctions occuring after the scandal surfaced - well over 50% of them occurred before. And maybe some of the runners from the countries that have no sanctions are microdosing within the parameters of their ABP, or then again perhaps most are competing clean. I don't know and you certainly don't either. But what's evident is that many of the Russians were tripping their passports with full throttle 02-vector doping. For example, in the Shobukhova case WADA stated this:

"The ABP expert panel concluded that the athlete’s abnormal profile was likely the result
of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with
“massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion
strategy. One expert considered that two of the athlete’s hemoglobin values obtained in
October 2009 and October 2011, in strict correlation with the Chicago Marathon, which
Ms. Shobukhova won both years on 11 October 2009 and 09 October 2011, respectively,
were so high that they should be considered a medical emergency."

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

A "medical emergency?!" (i.e., polythecymia)...Unbelievable.

Facts are facts - and there are no ABP sanctions on runners from the U.S. and the aforementioned other countries. If your conspiracy platform is that WADA's ignoring irregularities with these country's athletes, then you're casting aspersions on WADA without any proof.

I am asking you why there are none ? Do you believe the athletes are competing clean ? Do you believe TUE's are used to hide anomolies ?
Lets take Radcliffs case- clear cut anomolies in her passport but nothing done. Why ?

Athletics is rotten to the core and its not just the athletes.

oh and yes I am putting it out there that WADA are not doing there job nor are UKAD or USADA or any other bodies that should be properly policing doping.
The TUE system as a form of legalised cheating is out of control. As you seem to be focused on the US I'' assume you may be American- do you not find it amazing that a country who's athletes are so sick win so much ?

Why aren't there any ABP sanctions for runners from the U.S., UK, France, Germany, Canada, Mexico, the Scandinavian countries, Australia, Japan, etc.? That easy - because they're not tripping their ABPs. If athletes from those countries were tripping their passports and it was being ignored, as you say, that doesn't make sense since WADA's catching top athletes from other countries (even other than Russia). In addition to Dominguez of Spain, Asli Alptekin of Turkey was sanctioned for an ABP violation and stripped of her 1500m Gold medal in London. She's also a multiple European champion and Turkey's top female mid-D runner - so why wouldn't WADA just ignore her ABP anomalies if they're ignoring anomolies of top runners from the U.S. and the aforementioned other countries?

And yes...I think some athletes are competing clean in the passport era, as well as others are probably doping within the parameters of their ABP. On TUEs hiding hematological anomalies (?), you'll have to provide a reference on that, as I've never heard of it before (if that's true, I guess the Russians were oblivious to this anti-doping countermeasure. Lol).

On Radcliffe: Her Off-score wasn't outside the 99% limits - both the IAAF & UCI utilize a >133 Off-score for determining conclusive evidence of blood-manipulation (for example, Shobukhova's Off-score was an astronomical 153).

I think WADA is doing their job with the ABP. IMO, it's been effective, at least in the spectrum of distance running & race walking. I believe it's starting to allow clean athletes to have a shot at being competitive in major competitions. And you assumed right - I'm American and I'm not buying your conspiracy theory on WADA ignoring ABP irregularities with Americans & other countries.
Nomad
Junior Member
 
Posts: 204
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

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