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Doping In Athletics

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

Re: Re:

21 Aug 2017 18:33

kingjr wrote:
Brullnux wrote:I don't like nationalism, if that's a good enough explanation for you. It's tiresome.

That's your problem, kinda, isn't it?

Perhaps, but I find the incessant defence of Czech riders or athletes in general annoying, and I know others do too.
Brullnux
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21 Aug 2017 19:59

Kokoso does seem to bite whenever I post anything about Kreiziger - My post from three months ago - UCI charged Kreuziger with a ABP violation - The Czech Olympic Committee found no case to answer - The UCI appealed to CAS - Then CAS and the UCI dropped the case a few days before the hearing - So Kreuziger committed no anti-doping violation - It's crystal clear,
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Re:

21 Aug 2017 21:11

yaco wrote:Kokoso does seem to bite whenever I post anything about Kreiziger - My post from three months ago - UCI charged Kreuziger with a ABP violation - The Czech Olympic Committee found no case to answer - The UCI appealed to CAS - Then CAS and the UCI dropped the case a few days before the hearing - So Kreuziger committed no anti-doping violation - It's crystal clear,


Not as simple as that explanation; Tinkoff, threatened that he'd take the case to the European Court if found guilty at CAS. He also raised the conflict of Cookson's son working at Sky. Then the case magically was dropped.
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22 Aug 2017 08:13

If nationalism amounts to holding one's compatriots to different standards than others, be it conscious or not, then in the context of the present discussion it is effectively a strategy of selectively looking the other way. Not very honest or intelligent, IMHO.

As a more general note, a quick glance at international news & events lately would suggest nationalism being everyone's problem at the moment.

Nice Farah compilation, BTW. Seems the middle management or whatever didnt get the memo about what to (not) post online once Mo quit the oregon prog.
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Re:

22 Aug 2017 09:49

meat puppet wrote:As a more general note, a quick glance at international news & events lately would suggest nationalism being everyone's problem at the moment.

This is beside the point but labeling patriotism as nationalsim is.

On point: Never go full Norwegian.
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Re:

22 Aug 2017 12:28

yaco wrote:Kokoso does seem to bite whenever I post anything about Kreiziger - My post from three months ago - UCI charged Kreuziger with a ABP violation - The Czech Olympic Committee found no case to answer - The UCI appealed to CAS - Then CAS and the UCI dropped the case a few days before the hearing - So Kreuziger committed no anti-doping violation - It's crystal clear,

Not to mention he keeps calling it the BSP
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23 Aug 2017 10:24

I understand nationalism, but defending bad guys without knowing the story just because they are from the same country, is **** up
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28 Aug 2017 17:25

Not sure if this was posted before, but some interesting tidbits to be found.

The study is co-authored by Stephane Bermon btw.

http://athleticsillustrated.com/editorial/steve-magness-on-the-bermon-garnier-study-this-proves-testosterone-matters-even-if-it-is-naturally-produced-in-female-athletes/

“The other interesting part of the study is that because it was on the world’s best athletes, doping plays a role in testosterone levels,” Added Magness. “So a few in the media have pointed out that they didn’t see a difference between low testosterone and high testosterone performers in the 100m for instance, so you might then claim, “Testosterone doesn’t matter for the 100m!” But if we dig deeper, the study shows us that in men, throwers have lower testosterone levels than marathoners and race walkers. Now, all jokes aside, that makes no sense. But if we realize that those numbers are skewed because when people are doping and taking synthetic testosterone and then get off of it just before a competition (so as not to test positive) you often see a big dip in testosterone levels in their body. So, the same thing could explain why the better 100m performers had lower testosterone levels than the slower ones. It’s speculation of course, but that’s the problem. Doping bias studies at the elite level.”
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29 Aug 2017 11:50

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0765-4

Doping prevalence at Worlds 2011 estimated to be 39.4-47.9%
at Pan Arab games 2011 estimated to be 52.4-61.8%
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29 Aug 2017 12:19

Reckon this is a low figure - It would be closer to 80 or 90% if everything could be tested.
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Re:

29 Aug 2017 18:30

Catwhoorg wrote:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0765-4

Doping prevalence at Worlds 2011 estimated to be 39.4-47.9%
at Pan Arab games 2011 estimated to be 52.4-61.8%


Wow who knew the Russians sent a team to the Pan-arab games ;)
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Re:

30 Aug 2017 01:42

Catwhoorg wrote:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0765-4

Doping prevalence at Worlds 2011 estimated to be 39.4-47.9%
at Pan Arab games 2011 estimated to be 52.4-61.8%



Once we're at those levels, doesn't it follow that it's basically ubiquitous? i.e. close to 100%, simply because the level of (doped) competition makes it impossible to even be there without doping.
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Re:

30 Aug 2017 04:51

Catwhoorg wrote:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0765-4

Doping prevalence at Worlds 2011 estimated to be 39.4-47.9%
at Pan Arab games 2011 estimated to be 52.4-61.8%


WADA struggling to remain relevant.
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Re: Re:

30 Aug 2017 08:15

The Hegelian wrote:
Catwhoorg wrote:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0765-4

Doping prevalence at Worlds 2011 estimated to be 39.4-47.9%
at Pan Arab games 2011 estimated to be 52.4-61.8%



Once we're at those levels, doesn't it follow that it's basically ubiquitous? i.e. close to 100%, simply because the level of (doped) competition makes it impossible to even be there without doping.


That depends. Doping doesn't affect everyone the same. While the old adage of "only the poor athletes dope to keep up with the best" is clearly rubbish, there will be a section of athletes who fall in this bracket.

Obviously there is also a section of athletes at the opposite end who dope and are the best (we'll never know if they would be the best in a level playing field, plus it's kind of irrelevant).

It hinges on whether you believe someone can get to the World Championships without doping. I think that a talented athlete could (it might be country dependent, not a nationalism thing, just a level of competition for WC spots thing) but I'm unconvinced they could compete at the pointy end of the competition.
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User avatar King Boonen
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30 Aug 2017 12:14

Slice out the medalists (which wasn't done) and compare the top #3 at each event to the participants.

That would answer that question.

My belief is that medalists would be significantly higher in percentage terms, (probably not 100%) but obviously there is no data to confirm or deny.
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Re:

30 Aug 2017 12:31

Catwhoorg wrote:Slice out the medalists (which wasn't done) and compare the top #3 at each event to the participants.

That would answer that question.

My belief is that medalists would be significantly higher in percentage terms, (probably not 100%) but obviously there is no data to confirm or deny.


I would say finalists in major championships, all would be doping.
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30 Aug 2017 14:27

I really hope that if such a study is done again, the ask deep enough questions to determine finalists or medalists.
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Re:

30 Aug 2017 14:38

Catwhoorg wrote:I really hope that if such a study is done again, the ask deep enough questions to determine finalists or medalists.


It won't be done again, WADA commissioned it and the IAAF tried their hardest block it.

WADA won't be causing trouble for themselves (and their funders) by commissioning something similar.
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Re:

30 Aug 2017 14:43

Catwhoorg wrote:I really hope that if such a study is done again, the ask deep enough questions to determine finalists or medalists.


I'm not sure how possible that is with randomised response surveys?
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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30 Aug 2017 15:12

As far as I understand it*, its possible, but requires some detail advance set-up.

*No where near advanced enough a statistician to describe how its done though.
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