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Doping In Athletics

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Re: Re:

07 Oct 2018 01:03

gregrowlerson wrote:
noddy69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Kipchoge has been getting a ton of positive press, including a rather credulous article in the NYT (which should know better) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sports/eliud-kipchoge-marathon.html

In which we read this quote: Bedford, the London Marathon director, said, “In the eyes of people who know and understand the sport, there is no doubt at all that he is anything other than clean, legitimate and honest.”

Seriously? The guy goes from a 5k specialist (and a very good one) to winning what, 9 marathons in a row and obliterating the record. Plus Kenyan.

Here is Kipchoge's magic formula. Train less hard: But perhaps what is most unusual about Kipchoge, 33, and his diet of monastic extremes is the one thing he does not do: overextend himself in training. He estimates that he seldom pushes himself past 80 percent — 90 percent, tops — of his maximum effort when he circles the track for interval sessions, or when he embarks on 25-mile jogs.

It's not unusual at all for marathon runners to only hit 80% on interval training efforts. His maximum effort for intervals is way above what he could sustain for a marathon .
No one but a complete amateur who didn't know what they were at would run at race pace on a long run as training either for any amount of time. Marathon pace is very different to 10k/5k, so his training intervals on the longer runs would be at possibly 80%, which would be marathon paced efforts.ie not overextending himself.
Seriously the guy is doping to the gills but he still needs to train right.


Not so different nowadays...


Just seeing this now. The article is just wrong. Many coaches point to the jump in Marathon performances to harder and longer runs. 40k at 96-98% of race pace...

All the best Kenyan use the same course for the fastest 40 km before the race.

The course start at an elevation of 2020m, there are 20 km hilly finishing at 2195m, then they turn coming back.

This means the second half is globally downhill, and normally becomes faster than the first half of one minute - one and half minute.

I consider the difference per km, compared with the same effort at sea level on tarmac, of about 6 seconds : 3 seconds for the altitude (no more, for athletes born and living at the same altitude, or higher), and 3 seconds for the lack of grip (they run on rough roads, with training shoes, and normally the difference between one km on tarmac and one km on rough road is about 3 secs).

The best times ever in that course are :
Wilson Kipsang 2:03:32, 5 weeks before the WR in Berlin (2:03:23)
Abel Kirui 2:04:57 before London 2012 (when he had helycobacter)
Abel Kirui 2:05:57 before Chicago 2016 (he won)
Moses Mosop 2:07:15 in 2011 before Boston, when he ran 2:03:06: Till that time, nobody had run under 2:10, but after his training many athletes started to run 40 km very much faster than before.
Geoffrey Kirui ran 2:07:30 before winning Boston this year.

About the ladies, we have Mary Keitany in 2:18:36 before winning London in 2012 (2:18:37), Rita Jeptoo in 2:19:32 before winning Boston 2014, Florence Kiplagat 2:20:13 before winning Chicago last year.

We can say that, at 98% of effort, athletes can run about the same time they can have in competition.

This means that, from 40 to 30 days before the race, all the best runners in the world can run 40 km at 96-98% of max Marathon pace :

The time of Wilson (2:03:32), if we consider the difference of 6 seconds per km, can be like 1:59:30 - 2 hours at sea level, and this means a full Marathon between 2:06:20 and 2:07. If we compare this with the final performance of 2:03:23, we can see a difference of about 3 minutes, that in percentage is between 2.5 and 3% of the Marathon Speed.

This is the most important training before a Marathon, and the main reason of the difference in the performances between African and American runners in Marathon, when they have the same value in shorter distances.

A well trained Kenyan with 28:00 PB in 10 km can run 2:07, a "well trained" American with 28:00 is happy to run 2:11, because his long run NEVER is at the level of the final goal (both as speed and distance).


Kipchoge doesn't train less hard. his training log shows pretty intense training. Several runs of 40k, and every third run 30k or 40k long tempos. (his pre 2017 log is available http://www.sweatelite.co/eliud-kipchoge-full-training-log-leading-marathon-world-record-attempt/

I hate this "He/they (whoever)' is better because they train easier. Doping or not, the dudes work hard. They work harder than anyone else in the world.
More Strides than Rides
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,183
Joined: 15 Mar 2011 23:52

14 Nov 2018 14:00

https://www.dn.se/sport/meraf-bahta-tar-timeout/
Bronze 10,000 m EM winner Meraf Bahta takes a "time out" after 3 missed doping tests & a proposed 1 year ban by Sweden's authorities. (Also up for a prize for Female Athletic Performance of the Year!)
Winter always a good time to use up a "timeout". :rolleyes:
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“steel slats” does not a wall make.
User avatar Robert5091
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Posts: 3,389
Joined: 29 Mar 2016 08:56
Location: stockholm, sweden

Re: Re:

18 Nov 2018 20:01

More Strides than Rides wrote:
gregrowlerson wrote:
noddy69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Kipchoge has been getting a ton of positive press, including a rather credulous article in the NYT (which should know better) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sports/eliud-kipchoge-marathon.html

In which we read this quote: Bedford, the London Marathon director, said, “In the eyes of people who know and understand the sport, there is no doubt at all that he is anything other than clean, legitimate and honest.”

Seriously? The guy goes from a 5k specialist (and a very good one) to winning what, 9 marathons in a row and obliterating the record. Plus Kenyan.

Here is Kipchoge's magic formula. Train less hard: But perhaps what is most unusual about Kipchoge, 33, and his diet of monastic extremes is the one thing he does not do: overextend himself in training. He estimates that he seldom pushes himself past 80 percent — 90 percent, tops — of his maximum effort when he circles the track for interval sessions, or when he embarks on 25-mile jogs.

It's not unusual at all for marathon runners to only hit 80% on interval training efforts. His maximum effort for intervals is way above what he could sustain for a marathon .
No one but a complete amateur who didn't know what they were at would run at race pace on a long run as training either for any amount of time. Marathon pace is very different to 10k/5k, so his training intervals on the longer runs would be at possibly 80%, which would be marathon paced efforts.ie not overextending himself.
Seriously the guy is doping to the gills but he still needs to train right.


Not so different nowadays...


Just seeing this now. The article is just wrong. Many coaches point to the jump in Marathon performances to harder and longer runs. 40k at 96-98% of race pace...

All the best Kenyan use the same course for the fastest 40 km before the race.

The course start at an elevation of 2020m, there are 20 km hilly finishing at 2195m, then they turn coming back.

This means the second half is globally downhill, and normally becomes faster than the first half of one minute - one and half minute.

I consider the difference per km, compared with the same effort at sea level on tarmac, of about 6 seconds : 3 seconds for the altitude (no more, for athletes born and living at the same altitude, or higher), and 3 seconds for the lack of grip (they run on rough roads, with training shoes, and normally the difference between one km on tarmac and one km on rough road is about 3 secs).

The best times ever in that course are :
Wilson Kipsang 2:03:32, 5 weeks before the WR in Berlin (2:03:23)
Abel Kirui 2:04:57 before London 2012 (when he had helycobacter)
Abel Kirui 2:05:57 before Chicago 2016 (he won)
Moses Mosop 2:07:15 in 2011 before Boston, when he ran 2:03:06: Till that time, nobody had run under 2:10, but after his training many athletes started to run 40 km very much faster than before.
Geoffrey Kirui ran 2:07:30 before winning Boston this year.

About the ladies, we have Mary Keitany in 2:18:36 before winning London in 2012 (2:18:37), Rita Jeptoo in 2:19:32 before winning Boston 2014, Florence Kiplagat 2:20:13 before winning Chicago last year.

We can say that, at 98% of effort, athletes can run about the same time they can have in competition.

This means that, from 40 to 30 days before the race, all the best runners in the world can run 40 km at 96-98% of max Marathon pace :

The time of Wilson (2:03:32), if we consider the difference of 6 seconds per km, can be like 1:59:30 - 2 hours at sea level, and this means a full Marathon between 2:06:20 and 2:07. If we compare this with the final performance of 2:03:23, we can see a difference of about 3 minutes, that in percentage is between 2.5 and 3% of the Marathon Speed.

This is the most important training before a Marathon, and the main reason of the difference in the performances between African and American runners in Marathon, when they have the same value in shorter distances.

A well trained Kenyan with 28:00 PB in 10 km can run 2:07, a "well trained" American with 28:00 is happy to run 2:11, because his long run NEVER is at the level of the final goal (both as speed and distance).


Kipchoge doesn't train less hard. his training log shows pretty intense training. Several runs of 40k, and every third run 30k or 40k long tempos. (his pre 2017 log is available http://www.sweatelite.co/eliud-kipchoge-full-training-log-leading-marathon-world-record-attempt/

I hate this "He/they (whoever)' is better because they train easier. Doping or not, the dudes work hard. They work harder than anyone else in the world.


No, the Africans work just as hard but are more genetically talented. In the past the African runners didn't employ the same science to their training as runners from Western nations did. Now they do. We see the incredible results when you combine optimal genetic talent with optimal sports science. 2:01:39? Just incredible that's 2:52 / km for 42.2Km. I shake my head.
Cookster15
Member
 
Posts: 1,113
Joined: 14 May 2011 19:25

Re:

20 Nov 2018 17:19

Robert5091 wrote:https://www.dn.se/sport/meraf-bahta-tar-timeout/
Bronze 10,000 m EM winner Meraf Bahta takes a "time out" after 3 missed doping tests & a proposed 1 year ban by Sweden's authorities. (Also up for a prize for Female Athletic Performance of the Year!)
Winter always a good time to use up a "timeout". :rolleyes:


nice find.
User avatar masking_agent
Member
 
Posts: 601
Joined: 06 Oct 2010 19:26

22 Nov 2018 12:48

cookster the idea of genetic talent is a noble one....but still there is need to beat those others similarly gifted

ever watched u tube videos? wannabes from e africa talking about access to epo/ever looked at the 'popped list'

gotta utilise 'Every Possible Option' ..........like that guy breaking the marathon record by almost a minute

still had energy at finish to run up and down high fiving everyone

..........i shake my head too.....................
User avatar ebandit
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Posts: 4,145
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 18:24

Re: Re:

24 Nov 2018 00:00

Cookster15 wrote:
More Strides than Rides wrote:
gregrowlerson wrote:
noddy69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Kipchoge has been getting a ton of positive press, including a rather credulous article in the NYT (which should know better) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sports/eliud-kipchoge-marathon.html

In which we read this quote: Bedford, the London Marathon director, said, “In the eyes of people who know and understand the sport, there is no doubt at all that he is anything other than clean, legitimate and honest.”

Seriously? The guy goes from a 5k specialist (and a very good one) to winning what, 9 marathons in a row and obliterating the record. Plus Kenyan.

Here is Kipchoge's magic formula. Train less hard: But perhaps what is most unusual about Kipchoge, 33, and his diet of monastic extremes is the one thing he does not do: overextend himself in training. He estimates that he seldom pushes himself past 80 percent — 90 percent, tops — of his maximum effort when he circles the track for interval sessions, or when he embarks on 25-mile jogs.

It's not unusual at all for marathon runners to only hit 80% on interval training efforts. His maximum effort for intervals is way above what he could sustain for a marathon .
No one but a complete amateur who didn't know what they were at would run at race pace on a long run as training either for any amount of time. Marathon pace is very different to 10k/5k, so his training intervals on the longer runs would be at possibly 80%, which would be marathon paced efforts.ie not overextending himself.
Seriously the guy is doping to the gills but he still needs to train right.


Not so different nowadays...


Just seeing this now. The article is just wrong. Many coaches point to the jump in Marathon performances to harder and longer runs. 40k at 96-98% of race pace...

All the best Kenyan use the same course for the fastest 40 km before the race.

The course start at an elevation of 2020m, there are 20 km hilly finishing at 2195m, then they turn coming back.

This means the second half is globally downhill, and normally becomes faster than the first half of one minute - one and half minute.

I consider the difference per km, compared with the same effort at sea level on tarmac, of about 6 seconds : 3 seconds for the altitude (no more, for athletes born and living at the same altitude, or higher), and 3 seconds for the lack of grip (they run on rough roads, with training shoes, and normally the difference between one km on tarmac and one km on rough road is about 3 secs).

The best times ever in that course are :
Wilson Kipsang 2:03:32, 5 weeks before the WR in Berlin (2:03:23)
Abel Kirui 2:04:57 before London 2012 (when he had helycobacter)
Abel Kirui 2:05:57 before Chicago 2016 (he won)
Moses Mosop 2:07:15 in 2011 before Boston, when he ran 2:03:06: Till that time, nobody had run under 2:10, but after his training many athletes started to run 40 km very much faster than before.
Geoffrey Kirui ran 2:07:30 before winning Boston this year.

About the ladies, we have Mary Keitany in 2:18:36 before winning London in 2012 (2:18:37), Rita Jeptoo in 2:19:32 before winning Boston 2014, Florence Kiplagat 2:20:13 before winning Chicago last year.

We can say that, at 98% of effort, athletes can run about the same time they can have in competition.

This means that, from 40 to 30 days before the race, all the best runners in the world can run 40 km at 96-98% of max Marathon pace :

The time of Wilson (2:03:32), if we consider the difference of 6 seconds per km, can be like 1:59:30 - 2 hours at sea level, and this means a full Marathon between 2:06:20 and 2:07. If we compare this with the final performance of 2:03:23, we can see a difference of about 3 minutes, that in percentage is between 2.5 and 3% of the Marathon Speed.

This is the most important training before a Marathon, and the main reason of the difference in the performances between African and American runners in Marathon, when they have the same value in shorter distances.

A well trained Kenyan with 28:00 PB in 10 km can run 2:07, a "well trained" American with 28:00 is happy to run 2:11, because his long run NEVER is at the level of the final goal (both as speed and distance).


Kipchoge doesn't train less hard. his training log shows pretty intense training. Several runs of 40k, and every third run 30k or 40k long tempos. (his pre 2017 log is available http://www.sweatelite.co/eliud-kipchoge-full-training-log-leading-marathon-world-record-attempt/

I hate this "He/they (whoever)' is better because they train easier. Doping or not, the dudes work hard. They work harder than anyone else in the world.


No, the Africans work just as hard but are more genetically talented. In the past the African runners didn't employ the same science to their training as runners from Western nations did. Now they do. We see the incredible results when you combine optimal genetic talent with optimal sports science. 2:01:39? Just incredible that's 2:52 / km for 42.2Km. I shake my head.


And then add in that little bit extra :rolleyes:
https://www.lequipe.fr/Athletisme/Actualites/Le-kenyan-kipyegon-bett-est-suspendu-quatre-annees/961928
Sciatic
Junior Member
 
Posts: 277
Joined: 04 Mar 2011 06:18
Location: Seattle, Washington

29 Nov 2018 11:38

Abeba Aregawi is putting her spikes on the shelf according to Swedish media (https://www.svt.se/sport/friidrott/abeba-aregawi-karriar-vilande-torneklint-181128).

She has n't raced since 2016 when she got caught for meldonium and has now asked to be taken off the doping control list. 2017 she had a child with marathon runner Yemane Tsegay and is enjoying life back in Ethiopia.

My hard earned tax money paying her child support probably. :sad:
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“steel slats” does not a wall make.
User avatar Robert5091
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,389
Joined: 29 Mar 2016 08:56
Location: stockholm, sweden

05 Dec 2018 22:23

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/46441625
IAAF upholds Russia's ban from athletics into 2019

Russian athletes will remain banned from international competitions after the IAAF upheld the country's suspension into 2019.

Athletics' governing body banned Russia in November 2015 because of evidence of state-sponsored doping.

The ban will remain in place until samples and data from Moscow's former anti-doping laboratory are made available.

Russia must also pay all costs incurred by the work of the IAAF's task force.

"I hope they'll deliver the data by the end of this year," said Rune Andersen, head of the IAAF's task force on Russia. "But I cannot go any further than that.

"We've received no assurances it will be delivered to us directly.

"Assurances have been given to Wada (World Anti-Doping Agency) and Wada have set a deadline of 31 December to receive the data. We'll have to rely on receiving the data from Wada before handing it to the AIU (Athletics Integrity Unit)."
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“steel slats” does not a wall make.
User avatar Robert5091
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,389
Joined: 29 Mar 2016 08:56
Location: stockholm, sweden

Re: Re:

16 Dec 2018 15:08

More Strides than Rides wrote:
gregrowlerson wrote:
noddy69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Kipchoge has been getting a ton of positive press, including a rather credulous article in the NYT (which should know better) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sports/eliud-kipchoge-marathon.html

In which we read this quote: Bedford, the London Marathon director, said, “In the eyes of people who know and understand the sport, there is no doubt at all that he is anything other than clean, legitimate and honest.”

Seriously? The guy goes from a 5k specialist (and a very good one) to winning what, 9 marathons in a row and obliterating the record. Plus Kenyan.

Here is Kipchoge's magic formula. Train less hard: But perhaps what is most unusual about Kipchoge, 33, and his diet of monastic extremes is the one thing he does not do: overextend himself in training. He estimates that he seldom pushes himself past 80 percent — 90 percent, tops — of his maximum effort when he circles the track for interval sessions, or when he embarks on 25-mile jogs.

It's not unusual at all for marathon runners to only hit 80% on interval training efforts. His maximum effort for intervals is way above what he could sustain for a marathon .
No one but a complete amateur who didn't know what they were at would run at race pace on a long run as training either for any amount of time. Marathon pace is very different to 10k/5k, so his training intervals on the longer runs would be at possibly 80%, which would be marathon paced efforts.ie not overextending himself.
Seriously the guy is doping to the gills but he still needs to train right.


Not so different nowadays...


Just seeing this now. The article is just wrong. Many coaches point to the jump in Marathon performances to harder and longer runs. 40k at 96-98% of race pace...

All the best Kenyan use the same course for the fastest 40 km before the race.

The course start at an elevation of 2020m, there are 20 km hilly finishing at 2195m, then they turn coming back.

This means the second half is globally downhill, and normally becomes faster than the first half of one minute - one and half minute.

I consider the difference per km, compared with the same effort at sea level on tarmac, of about 6 seconds : 3 seconds for the altitude (no more, for athletes born and living at the same altitude, or higher), and 3 seconds for the lack of grip (they run on rough roads, with training shoes, and normally the difference between one km on tarmac and one km on rough road is about 3 secs).

The best times ever in that course are :
Wilson Kipsang 2:03:32, 5 weeks before the WR in Berlin (2:03:23)
Abel Kirui 2:04:57 before London 2012 (when he had helycobacter)
Abel Kirui 2:05:57 before Chicago 2016 (he won)
Moses Mosop 2:07:15 in 2011 before Boston, when he ran 2:03:06: Till that time, nobody had run under 2:10, but after his training many athletes started to run 40 km very much faster than before.
Geoffrey Kirui ran 2:07:30 before winning Boston this year.

About the ladies, we have Mary Keitany in 2:18:36 before winning London in 2012 (2:18:37), Rita Jeptoo in 2:19:32 before winning Boston 2014, Florence Kiplagat 2:20:13 before winning Chicago last year.

We can say that, at 98% of effort, athletes can run about the same time they can have in competition.

This means that, from 40 to 30 days before the race, all the best runners in the world can run 40 km at 96-98% of max Marathon pace :

The time of Wilson (2:03:32), if we consider the difference of 6 seconds per km, can be like 1:59:30 - 2 hours at sea level, and this means a full Marathon between 2:06:20 and 2:07. If we compare this with the final performance of 2:03:23, we can see a difference of about 3 minutes, that in percentage is between 2.5 and 3% of the Marathon Speed.

This is the most important training before a Marathon, and the main reason of the difference in the performances between African and American runners in Marathon, when they have the same value in shorter distances.

A well trained Kenyan with 28:00 PB in 10 km can run 2:07, a "well trained" American with 28:00 is happy to run 2:11, because his long run NEVER is at the level of the final goal (both as speed and distance).


Kipchoge doesn't train less hard. his training log shows pretty intense training. Several runs of 40k, and every third run 30k or 40k long tempos. (his pre 2017 log is available http://www.sweatelite.co/eliud-kipchoge-full-training-log-leading-marathon-world-record-attempt/

I hate this "He/they (whoever)' is better because they train easier. Doping or not, the dudes work hard. They work harder than anyone else in the world.

The article is only wrong if it indicated marathon pace. If he is running intervals they could be @80-90%max r pace or lactate threshold..it doesnt say marathon pace it says of his max. His max is way above marathon pace.

Still, doped to the gills no matter what training he is doing.
noddy69
Member
 
Posts: 613
Joined: 04 Oct 2011 07:37

05 Jan 2019 14:12

https://www.dn.se/sport/meraf-bahta-frias/

Meraf Bahta has been believed by Swedish Anti-doping for 3 missed doping tests and can resume her career, unless someone appeals to WADA within 3 weeks.
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“steel slats” does not a wall make.
User avatar Robert5091
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,389
Joined: 29 Mar 2016 08:56
Location: stockholm, sweden

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