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Re: Re:

10 Aug 2016 01:42

thehog wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/olympics-2016/convicted-drug-cheats-escaped-out-of-competition-testing-before-rio/news-story/1a8d97cd2cd846d8d9c973391e4a71ad

OLYMPIC swimmers and coaches have lost complete faith in FINA amid revelations swimming’s governing body inexplicably let two convicted drug cheats escape out of competition testing for five months last year.

Not that the tests are easy to beat anyways.


Aussie swimmers pretending to be clean? Now, that is the biggest laugh in the history of sport :rolleyes:


The media down here is all over it talking about how our great clean Aussie swimmers having to compete against these doped up Chinese cheats, not even one voice speaking about the possibility that Aussie swimmers could be doping, they just wouldn't do that as we don't have a doping culture and show just what can be achieved with good old hard work :rolleyes:
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Re: Re:

10 Aug 2016 02:23

StryderHells wrote:
thehog wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/olympics-2016/convicted-drug-cheats-escaped-out-of-competition-testing-before-rio/news-story/1a8d97cd2cd846d8d9c973391e4a71ad

OLYMPIC swimmers and coaches have lost complete faith in FINA amid revelations swimming’s governing body inexplicably let two convicted drug cheats escape out of competition testing for five months last year.

Not that the tests are easy to beat anyways.


Aussie swimmers pretending to be clean? Now, that is the biggest laugh in the history of sport :rolleyes:


The media down here is all over it talking about how our great clean Aussie swimmers having to compete against these doped up Chinese cheats, not even one voice speaking about the possibility that Aussie swimmers could be doping, they just wouldn't do that as we don't have a doping culture and show just what can be achieved with good old hard work :rolleyes:


I could only imagine. They might ask themselves what happened to Hackett, Thorpe, Miller etc. when they stopped swimming. They move to other meds or fall deep into depression, generally both. The Aussie cyclists under Walsh were mostly the same. There is no support structure for ex-athletes who doped their entire careers.
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Re: Re:

10 Aug 2016 02:39

StryderHells wrote:
thehog wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/olympics-2016/convicted-drug-cheats-escaped-out-of-competition-testing-before-rio/news-story/1a8d97cd2cd846d8d9c973391e4a71ad

OLYMPIC swimmers and coaches have lost complete faith in FINA amid revelations swimming’s governing body inexplicably let two convicted drug cheats escape out of competition testing for five months last year.

Not that the tests are easy to beat anyways.


Aussie swimmers pretending to be clean? Now, that is the biggest laugh in the history of sport :rolleyes:


The media down here is all over it talking about how our great clean Aussie swimmers having to compete against these doped up Chinese cheats, not even one voice speaking about the possibility that Aussie swimmers could be doping, they just wouldn't do that as we don't have a doping culture and show just what can be achieved with good old hard work :rolleyes:



I always felt that the Aussies were less uptight and more neutral, perhaps things have changed in media. The American media was always going to try and persuade the public to view Russians and Chinese as 'villains.' You saw the clearly with King and to some extent Phelps, who backed her. Perhaps they did so on their own belief (though hypocritical it may be, as I am not convinced a clean athlete would be able to dominate dopers, who are equally talented and work hard) and not any pressure or anything they may have seen in the media, but no doubt it's working in the US. I have largely avoided going to any US MSM outlet and avoided the comment sections. Today I read one or two of the stories post King's victory, and the hero vs villain references were nauseating. The comment section fed on that, it seemed.

I suppose the Americans like King work extremely hard to win their medals 'clean,' while the Russians and Chinese don't work hard, have no talent and have to rely on doping to try and compete at the American level.
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10 Aug 2016 03:17

Swimming fans - What's the deal with Hosszu anyway? I'm far from a swimming expert but it seems like every other major swimmer is several years younger than her (female swimmers peak very early?)

And then I saw that she didn't do anything in 04 or 08 and met her current coach (unrelated: who sounds like a psycho) right after 2012 where her best result in an event was 4th. Then the next year she started breaking World Records..

Is that progression/peaking at 27 believable at all?


As an aside, what is the general reputation of swimming as a sport? Like, if you'd compare it to an era of cycling..
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Re:

10 Aug 2016 08:11

luckyboy wrote:Swimming fans - What's the deal with Hosszu anyway? I'm far from a swimming expert but it seems like every other major swimmer is several years younger than her (female swimmers peak very early?)
...
Is that progression/peaking at 27 believable at all?

Devaltos asked a related question upthread: why do swimmers peak so early? It's a fascinating question. I found some discussion of it on the internet (blogs, forums, etc.), but no satisfactory answer.

My own two cents is that sports like swimming and gymnastics are Olympic sports like none other. I.e., if you're good at those sports, you're bound to get onto some Olympic state-funded program at a very young age, which in turn means you're going to be doping at a very young age (cf. Lemond/Heiden). Maybe that's part of the explanation.

As an aside, what is the general reputation of swimming as a sport? Like, if you'd compare it to an era of cycling..
They've had less scandals than cycling and athletics. Less scandals means a better reputation, clearly.
But doping among the pro's is similarly rampant.
It's well documented that the US Swimming federation was shipping in German (blood) doping doctors in the mid-70s. The need for doping (steroids, blood doping) in swimming was openly talked about in that era.
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10 Aug 2016 10:12

I've had enough of Ledecky. She is like the worse version of Sun Yang. If she ever wins the 100m free I will stop watching swimming.
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10 Aug 2016 10:29

she looks like an hgh experiment.
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sniper
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10 Aug 2016 10:53

Phelps is totes clean.
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Re: Swimming

10 Aug 2016 10:57

Hosszu reminds me of Michelle Smith. However, she had some success before hooking up with her current Svengali, starting with 2009 words, where she won 2 bronzes. So there was definitely a progression. But I'm suspicious of her current dominance, especially coming later in a career with a questionable "coach."

Ledecky may just be an outlier, like Phelps or Janet Evans. Because swimming is less dependent on teams/tactics than cycling, it may very well be that training/technique/body type, taken together, can produce a naturally dominant athlete. Having said that, for those same reasons, microdosing is likely to be extremely effective.

I actually find the current finger pointing at the Chinese/Russian athletes refreshing. Sure, there's always the peril of comeuppance, but I certainly prefer it to the omerta in the peloton.
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Re:

10 Aug 2016 14:02

luckyboy wrote:Swimming fans - What's the deal with Hosszu anyway? I'm far from a swimming expert but it seems like every other major swimmer is several years younger than her (female swimmers peak very early?)

And then I saw that she didn't do anything in 04 or 08 and met her current coach (unrelated: who sounds like a psycho) right after 2012 where her best result in an event was 4th. Then the next year she started breaking World Records..

Is that progression/peaking at 27 believable at all?


As an aside, what is the general reputation of swimming as a sport? Like, if you'd compare it to an era of cycling..

Good points. Those in itself scream "doping" without being an expert.

Sniper, I guess we would like to know more inside information. I guess more details if we could.

Just like in cycling it looks like some swimmers look really more talented than others. It doesn't mean that they are clean, but I guess they get more acceptance. Just like cycling.
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10 Aug 2016 17:30

Hosszu seems like a screaming case of getting on the right meds to boost her to world class status. The whole Hungary connection and her 'coach' add up to deep skepticism.
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Re: Re:

10 Aug 2016 20:11

Escarabajo:
Sniper, I guess we would like to know more inside information. I guess more details if we could.

Short on time now, but I'll drop this here:
http://www.si.com/vault/1977/10/31/626410/pricking-up-their-ears
That's pretty unambiguous innit.
P.s. For more info on Mader see for instance http://m.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-41147129.html
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10 Aug 2016 21:01

Hosszú is an interesting case.

Years ago, she was just one of the several talents of Hungary (I live there). They were all considered fairly succesful (considering that Hungary is a small country, with a far less professional sport environment than the USA, for example), and she was just one of them, not extremely talented or something.

What happened?

She went to university at the USA (from 2008). She studied there, she lived there, she trained there. She met her trainer there (who is her husband now, too), who trains her since the autumn of 2012. Later, they returned to Hungary, she became a superstar here, and she is much better now compared to those other talents I mentioned. She trained with a much more professional environment, which probably means a better doping program too.

The problem is, that with her return, our national swimming association became a mess, because she tried to make them realise how amateurish the system is. Of course, it did not change anything in the association, or for the other swimmers, they are still doing what they have been doing. She has a special status - she is part of the hungarian swimming team, but she is not really part of the Hungarian training system. She has a celebrity status here most swimmer doesn't have (even guys like Cseh, who has been winning for a longer time).

Cervelo77 - What are you implying with the Hungarian connection? I'm honestly curious. :)
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Re: Swimming

12 Aug 2016 11:37

Bingo. I said in another thread the Chinese female swimmers were likely involved in genetic doping.The bust was for something more basic though...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/12/chinese-swimmer-chen-xinyi-fails-doping-test-at-olympics/
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12 Aug 2016 14:36

so how does a little unknown Canadian steal the gold from the heavily favourited Aussies in the women's 100 metre freestyle. I did not think Penny Oleksiak would stand a chance as I'm sure she's racing clean. Maybe the Aussies feared a test and decided not to take anything ? Any thoughts ?
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Re:

12 Aug 2016 18:25

masking_agent wrote:so how does a little unknown Canadian steal the gold from the heavily favourited Aussies in the women's 100 metre freestyle. I did not think Penny Oleksiak would stand a chance as I'm sure she's racing clean. Maybe the Aussies feared a test and decided not to take anything ? Any thoughts ?



Ha. She's 185cm tall (6'1). For a kid (yes, I think we can call someone that's 16 a kid), that just turned 16 and is that tall and looks like she's older than her actual age (though not like Miruts Yifter age discrepancy), she's quite big and looks more physically mature than the women she was racing against.

I google her (had really no idea who she was prior to the Olympics), and her brother plays for the Dallas Stars in the NHL. The guy is huge. 201cm (6'7), so perhaps the height runs in the family and their parents were also athletes. It doesn't explain everything about her high level here in Rio.
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12 Aug 2016 18:28

100m freestyle seems more unpredictable than the other swimming events. Youth triumphed over experience with all 3 gold medals. Explosivity?
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12 Aug 2016 18:34

The Campbells were 1 and 2 at the halfway point. Cate especially went out way too quickly. They swam really poor races tactically. Cate set the OR in the heats and the semis, before swimming a half second slower in the final. Dope doesn't wear off that quickly.
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12 Aug 2016 19:49

Cate was on world record pace.

Oleksiak is a big talent. It's not really a surprise. Earl McCarthy(past Irish Olympian) spoke to her coach last year and she was tipped for a medal.
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Re: Swimming

12 Aug 2016 19:53

Short sprint events are always going to be more subject to chance. If your dive or turn is a little off, it can make a big difference. So can where you are in your stroke cycle as you approach the wall. The 100m FS, and even more the 50m, is a crapshoot. When was the last time a man repeated as champion in the 100 FS? I think Popov in 92/96. Also did the double in the 50, which is extraordinary.

This, by the way, leads to me a non-doping explanation of Phelps (not saying he isn't doping, but looking for other explanations). He may have always been a good sprinter naturally, but didn't emphasize it, because middle distance events are safer, more predictable. Now, as he ages, and can't handle all the extra distance involved in training and racing at those distances, he's working on his sprinting more. Also, since he's dropped the 400 IM, he can emphasize FS a little more than in the past. Thus his time in the 4 x 100 FS relay was close to his best.

But his 200 IM was certainly suspicious, too. For the most part, his times now are well off what he did in his prime, but his time in the 200 IM final was very close to his personal best. Lochte swam just 0.2 second or so slower than he did in the semis, and more than three seconds off his WR, as you would expect for a guy 32 years old. But Phelps knocked two whole seconds off his semi time. And most of that damage was in the final 50 FS.
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