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Dumoulin.

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

24 May 2017 12:39

Zinoviev Letter wrote:
carton wrote:
Zinoviev Letter wrote:
Random Direction wrote:Could the dump be a side effect of a testosterone suppository, blood bag, or some other rest day recovery medicine?


Sure. It could also be a side effect of a sandwich. Or of a team helper not washing his hands while packing the lunches. Or of repeated and drastic shifts in altitude. Or of...
too many gummy bears consumed as masking agents? :rolleyes:


Yes, of course. As we all know, nobody has ever got a random emergency urge to dump for any reason other than those stemming from PED use. It's a dead give away, just like going bald.
It happens to me sometimes when I haven't slept enough, meaning when I wake up during the wrong phase of sleep.
kingjr
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Re: Re:

24 May 2017 13:09

carton wrote:
Zinoviev Letter wrote:
Random Direction wrote:Could the dump be a side effect of a testosterone suppository, blood bag, or some other rest day recovery medicine?


Sure. It could also be a side effect of a sandwich. Or of a team helper not washing his hands while packing the lunches. Or of repeated and drastic shifts in altitude. Or of...
too many gummy bears consumed as masking agents? :rolleyes:

Image
rick james
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25 May 2017 14:54

Hai guys, anything interesting happening with our favorite time trialist?
The poster formerly known as yespatterns.
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Re:

25 May 2017 15:01

GraftPunk wrote:Hai guys, anything interesting happening with our favorite time trialist?


He just did a Riis. :D
User avatar Benotti69
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25 May 2017 15:04

This is just getting even more annoying as it goes on.
gmedina
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25 May 2017 15:06

Is he doing the tour? Tom v Froomey would be nuclear!!

Eating up the mountain goats and spitting them out. But for the dump he'd win this Giro by 5 minutes.
ontheroad
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Re: Re:

25 May 2017 15:20

Benotti69 wrote:
GraftPunk wrote:Hai guys, anything interesting happening with our favorite time trialist?


He just did a Riis. :D


Yup. In all fairness though, everyone not in the first group seemed oddly.... weak? I guess I'll have to wait for the numbers, but today felt weird for some reason. Maybe the pace was just so high the anti-climax was a given and Nibs/Quintana are saving matches. In any event I was anticipating more action, granted I'm usually disappointed when I do that.
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25 May 2017 15:30

Too bad that he won't face Froome on his prime, otherwise we'd see an even more full retard TDF.
But maybe Dumoulin gets a chance at Sky.
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25 May 2017 15:56

is Quintana always careful or not? I think he is. Sometimes you have to take a risk to win but these guys worry too much about their present GC position and simply don't have a crack at winning.
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25 May 2017 16:22

Awsome race by Dumoulin again today, the race is his to loose now and I think he will win bar some accident or too many gels;) (I've ran for the ditches myself doing that:p).
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25 May 2017 16:41

the rest day worked miracles!
capuldemetal
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25 May 2017 17:38

One thing is certain, it's better to train in SA than in Colombia.
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25 May 2017 19:02

well, what can we say; dont know to laugh or cry
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25 May 2017 20:51

This was a much less impressive performance than some of his earlier ones in this Giro. Yes he had no problem dealing with Nairo Quintana's attacks in the mountains. But Sebastian Reichenbach had no trouble controlling today's Quintana. As for the final climb, I strongly suspect that very fit cyclotourists have scaled it faster than than our three GC leaders did today.
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Re:

25 May 2017 21:29

hrotha wrote:Pantani wasn't on some super exotic new drug in 1999 - he was on the good ol' EPO and other well-known drugs, but on a very refined program after a decade or thereabouts of progress in scientific doping. Riders in 2017 don't really need to be on anything special, they just need to have refined the use of the various drugs we have reason to suspect have come to the fore the last 5-6 years.

As for the impact of those other factors you mention, it ranges from "negligible" to "not very large".



Brilliant! So advances in tyres, wheels, frames, clothing, use of radios and power meters, beetroot juice, and Tramadol milkshakes. None of that can have any effect at all. Why did they spend all those hundreds of millions on research then?

Also micro dosing EPO doesn't give you the same results as whacking your haematocrit level up to 60%. If modern riders are on EPO then they're giving themselves a tiny advantage over not using it. So where is all your proof that everybody is just as drugged as they used to be?

There is none. Which is the problem. As anytime somebody points out that the level of tinfoil required to be a clinic cultist would provide hats for the whole of China, they are banned and the cult just keeps fapping along.
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Re: Re:

25 May 2017 22:23

GreasyChain wrote:
hrotha wrote:Pantani wasn't on some super exotic new drug in 1999 - he was on the good ol' EPO and other well-known drugs, but on a very refined program after a decade or thereabouts of progress in scientific doping. Riders in 2017 don't really need to be on anything special, they just need to have refined the use of the various drugs we have reason to suspect have come to the fore the last 5-6 years.

As for the impact of those other factors you mention, it ranges from "negligible" to "not very large".



Brilliant! So advances in tyres, wheels, frames, clothing, use of radios and power meters, beetroot juice, and Tramadol milkshakes. None of that can have any effect at all. Why did they spend all those hundreds of millions on research then?

Also micro dosing EPO doesn't give you the same results as whacking your haematocrit level up to 60%. If modern riders are on EPO then they're giving themselves a tiny advantage over not using it. So where is all your proof that everybody is just as drugged as they used to be?

There is none. Which is the problem. As anytime somebody points out that the level of tinfoil required to be a clinic cultist would provide hats for the whole of China, they are banned and the cult just keeps fapping along.

Tramadol is one of the drugs that have come to the fore hrotha mentions.

The other things about advances - of course they have an effect, but they're not exclusive to one rider or team. It's very rare that one rider or team has access to something that absolutely nobody else has, whether it be a legal or an illegal form of assistance. If a new technological advance is made, you can bet the other bike manufacturers will be on it like glue to neutralize their opponents' advantages as quickly as possible. If a new drug is discovered, the chances of a team forking out an exclusivity deal with its producers à la Balco is much more limited in a team of commercial sponsors, as there's money to be made if the drug can be obtained legally, and if it can't then the black market knows no exclusivity deal.

Even those that sold us the "marginal gains" story - who you'd have to be pretty naïve to believe weren't pulling the wool over people's eyes by now, as to truly believe they didn't do anything wrong and it was all a misunderstanding, you'd be crediting them with far too little intelligence to have got where they are without it being a complete fluke - credited the success to the "aggregation" of marginal gains, an important distinction which is all too often omitted by both the defenders of, and ridiculers of, the theory. In the kayfabe version of events (I use the wrestling term deliberately, in order to specify that here I'm solely talking about the "on-message" explanation, rather than intending to start another debate) each gain is negligible - that's why they're called "marginal" gains in the first place, of course - but the various incremental, "not very large" gains then combine together to produce a larger gain.

As for the "proof everybody's as drugged up as they used to be", it's completely fallacious to argue that this is the point hrotha is making. People aren't doping to mid-late 90s levels now, it's plain to see. In 1998, there were a dozen Emanuele Sellas wearing out their brake pads on switchbacks in the mountains; in 2008 he stood out like a sore thumb. Nobody except Jimmy Briceño is recording 60% hct, nobody is having to be woken up in the middle of the night to go spinning to prevent their blood from clotting (notwithstanding that that story was possibly apocryphal anyway). You can't see hct fluctuations of 20% now. That's probably the greatest achievement of the bio-passport - it may not stop doping, but it keeps it within much safer parameters and ensures careful management of levels; it's far from impregnable, as we know full well (Kreuziger...) but it's meant that the amount of doping you can get away with is much lower. The difference in level between a clean rider and a rider of comparable level doping as much as he can get away with is less, so the clean rider can be more competitive than he was 20 years ago - but it doesn't necessarily mean that the péloton is any cleaner, if the same number of riders are doping, just doping less than they did before...
Last edited by Libertine Seguros on 25 May 2017 22:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

25 May 2017 22:24

GreasyChain wrote:
hrotha wrote:Pantani wasn't on some super exotic new drug in 1999 - he was on the good ol' EPO and other well-known drugs, but on a very refined program after a decade or thereabouts of progress in scientific doping. Riders in 2017 don't really need to be on anything special, they just need to have refined the use of the various drugs we have reason to suspect have come to the fore the last 5-6 years.

As for the impact of those other factors you mention, it ranges from "negligible" to "not very large".



Brilliant! So advances in tyres, wheels, frames, clothing, use of radios and power meters, beetroot juice, and Tramadol milkshakes. None of that can have any effect at all. Why did they spend all those hundreds of millions on research then?

Also micro dosing EPO doesn't give you the same results as whacking your haematocrit level up to 60%. If modern riders are on EPO then they're giving themselves a tiny advantage over not using it. So where is all your proof that everybody is just as drugged as they used to be?

There is none. Which is the problem. As anytime somebody points out that the level of tinfoil required to be a clinic cultist would provide hats for the whole of China, they are banned and the cult just keeps fapping along.



Dumoulin clean beating Nibali a client of Dr Ferrari?

EPO whether micro-dosed or not is just part of the cocktail of PEDs. There are many different variations of EPO and not all can be tested for. Who knows what the latest PED of choice is, as testing is at least 10 years behind.

Check out the list Jimenez took.

CIRC reported some riders taking more than 30 tablets a day during GTs.

No tinfoils hat needed when looking at whether cycling still has a doping culture, just look at those running the sport, the teams, the doctors etc etc........they have not changed their ways, just the medicine cabinets contents and methods.
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Re: Dumoulin.

25 May 2017 22:54

He just doesn't crack. He always seems to be going effortlessly. What a joke.

I'm troubled by the enthusiastic commentary from TV presenters. They cast no doubt whatsoever.
''The battle between Démare and Bouhanni for being France's best sprinter is decided: it's Coquard.'' - BBB
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Re:

25 May 2017 22:58

gmedina wrote:This is just getting even more annoying as it goes on.


Agreed. It goes from fun and laughable to tedious and irritating very quickly.

This crap is pissing me off.
''The battle between Démare and Bouhanni for being France's best sprinter is decided: it's Coquard.'' - BBB
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26 May 2017 00:37

I hope he takes this Giro and then joins a stronger team, with a better "program" and goes after Froome for 2018's TdF and is around as a contender for some time.
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