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Dumoulin.

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Re: Re:

20 Jul 2018 19:48

Franklin wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:A stage with 3 HC climbs shouldn't result in TT riders getting 1-2, no.

Greg Lemond looks at you and shrugs.

Seriously, what's this denial of an old truth by inventing a crazy myth that climbers dominated the TdF? It has always been the case that stronger TT riders did better in consecutive mountain stages, especially over several cols. This was the case pre-epo and even pre-old school blood charging.

There's a reason people like Bobbet, Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Fignon and Lemond dominated both in the TT as in the mountains. They were more resilient.

Blanco wrote:
Dekker_Tifosi wrote:TT riders, or better, allround riders have always been stronger than pure climbers.


Yeah, if you believe in fairy tales.. :rolleyes:


It's there in the palmares of the TdF. Why deny reality?

Saint Unix wrote:The reason TdF winners are usually a combination of TTers and climbers is because they can make up more time on the flats/TTs than they lose on the climbs and the TdF is traditionally the flattest GT of the three.


Hinault won most time in the mountains (for example 1981 and 1982). Simply because he never cracked.

1984: Fignon won literally every stage that mattered., be it TT or mountainstage. Indeed he made a mockery of everyone by absolutely the most insane power climbing (later duplicated by Riis with veins full of epo).

Same with Greg 1986. Most time gained in mountains. In 1989 besides on Fignon (who gained on him in the mountains, but lost in the two TT's) he gained time on everyone in the mountains (won two mountain stages!).



Do not create a new myth by saying the TTers used to limit time losses... they flat out dominated the TdF mountain stages in the past. If anything, Epo seems to have changed this a bit.

Pure climbers make up a large percentage of winners in the Giro and Vuelta because they're more mountain heavy and the tiny guys usually kick the asses of the heavier guys uphill, doping or no doping.


1. Giro? Sorry. no. The multiple Giro winners all dominated the TT's,
2. Vuelta? More so, but generally the competition used to be a lot less fierce. Merckx and Hinault seldom rode the Vuelta (and if they did they crushed the competition). People like Freddy Maertens and Sean Kelly also won the Vuelta.

Now if we look at TD (this thread) and the Sky boys (other threads), it's clear they are doping. But that these are basically TT guys climbing with the best is simply nothing new at all. It's actually how it used to be, with a bit less "gifts" nowadays. => 1984 1986 are years where the TT guys also didn't gift stages to climbers. Lemond and Fignon won most climbing stages those years, blowing away the Postobon guys, Delgado, the Dutch climbers. In 1985 Herrera had a good year, but he was also quite in the pocket of Hinault (who also had that terrible crash halfway).

And lastly, TD is a doper, but his progression is very different from the Sky boys. It's also quite something to claim TD never showed any promise as a climber as a young guy (especially since he's still young!).


Great post, cuts through the BS often used as ‘evidence’ of doping (ie big guys can’t climb)in this forum with a simple clarity that’s rarely acknowledged
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20 Jul 2018 21:34

In the U23's he never really showed much promise as a climber

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-l-avenir/2010/gc

Bardet who is 2 days younger beat Dumoulin by nearly an hour when they were both 20

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-l-avenir/2011/gc

Beaten by Bardet again (and Barguil)

A very promising 14th place on the MTF though

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-l-avenir/2011/stage-6

Same time as Konrad who is a year younger

Could he at least TT at a top level in 201?

Not really

4 s/km slower than Durbridge at the Worlds

4 s/km slower than Paillot in the EC

I am beginning to see why Rabobank thought that he was not worth keeping and if he was a "generational" talent, he certainly hid it well.

Ok, maybe he got better at climbing when he turned pro

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/ruta-del-sol/2012/stage-2

13th place on a murito (IIRC), Yay, improvement at last

Rest of the year, uh

50th C-I MTF

28th California

19th Burgos

79 and 62 Vuelta

Maybe things got better in 2013?

Erm

39th T-A

101st in the pseudo MTF in Romandie

46th and 61st on the most difficult stages in the TdS

Only one top 50 in the mountains in the Tour (and that from a break)

2014 then?

19th in C-I when leading the race

14th on Verbier in the Tour de Suisse

And after years of trying, Tom finally gets a top-10 result on a MTF

Not a single top-40 stage result in the mountains in the Tour that year, but who cares, he finally showed promise in the Tour de Suisse

2015, the breakthrough year

15th Paris-Nice

10th TdS

Didn't ride that many mountains prior to the Vuelta

So let's recap, prior to suddenly contending for a Vuelta, Dumoulin had by my count a grand total of 2 top-10 mountain top stage finishes at any level in his whole career. He was also approximately 24,75 years old at the start of the Vuelta
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21 Jul 2018 06:20

Great post, roundabout. This guy is just another donkey to racehorse transformation, certainly in terms of his climbing. And his sudden breakthrough to absolutely elite TTer in 2014, having been nowhere near the best as a junior, probably deserves some more examination as well.
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Re: Re:

21 Jul 2018 08:35

DFA123 wrote:
dacooley wrote:Damn, DFA, you appear to be so knowledgeable about cycling in a broad sense, but so poisonously biased when it comes to all-rounders and diesel-climbers like Dimoulin, Thomas or Froome. Arghhh...

They aren't diesel climbers any more though. Dumoulin was in 2015 and 2017 when he dieseled his way to great GT results. But this year has been different; he's been regularly responding to and making all kinds of attacks.

It was the climbers like Landa and Quintana doing the steady paced efforts yesterday and still leaking time. Dumoulin, Froome and Thomas were the ones doing stop-start intervals in the last 4km and still pulling out time. It's pretty incongruous.

Why? They really largely are at this point at least. When Quintana, Landa or Bardet get dropped, it's almost the end, which you can't say about Froome, Dimoulin or Thomas in his current shape because they are stunning at riding tempo uphill, steadily reeling attackers in.
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Re: Re:

21 Jul 2018 08:50

dacooley wrote:
DFA123 wrote:
dacooley wrote:Damn, DFA, you appear to be so knowledgeable about cycling in a broad sense, but so poisonously biased when it comes to all-rounders and diesel-climbers like Dimoulin, Thomas or Froome. Arghhh...

They aren't diesel climbers any more though. Dumoulin was in 2015 and 2017 when he dieseled his way to great GT results. But this year has been different; he's been regularly responding to and making all kinds of attacks.

It was the climbers like Landa and Quintana doing the steady paced efforts yesterday and still leaking time. Dumoulin, Froome and Thomas were the ones doing stop-start intervals in the last 4km and still pulling out time. It's pretty incongruous.

Why? They really largely are at this point at least. When Quintana, Landa or Bardet get dropped, it's almost the end, which you can't say about Froome, Dimoulin or Thomas in his current shape because they are stunning at riding tempo uphill, steadily reeling attackers in.

This guy is just another donkey to racehorse transformation, certainly in terms of his climbing.

that's a kind of reasoning which can be with ease applied to any breakthrough performance. from quintana in the 2013 tour to landa in the 2015 giro.
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Re: Dumoulin.

21 Jul 2018 08:59

I have to laugh at posting u23 results to prove something.

Tom Jelte Slagter was 3rd in the Tour l'Avenir.
Michael Matthews was 6th (ahead of Kelderman) once.

Both Avenirs also pretty mountainous btw.
So they should have been elite climbers right?

Not the mention the legion of good U23 climbers who never even did anything worth of note in GT's later on. Fabio Duarte, Romain Sicard etc.

U23 results or lack thereof in mountains tell you nothing. :lol: From the moment Dumoulin became professional he started improving his results uphill, slowly but surely.
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Re: Re:

21 Jul 2018 09:03

dacooley wrote:that's a kind of reasoning which can be with ease applied to any breakthrough performance. from quintana in the 2013 tour to landa in the 2015 giro.

Hilariously wrong about Quintana.

Quintana won l'Avenir in 2010, won a mountain stage that went over Joux Plane at the 2012 Dauphine, finished 6th (behind a two man breakaway, so 4th among the strongest climbers) on this stage of the 2012 Vuelta, finished 11th at the 2012 Lombardia and won Pais Vasco in 2013, in addition to a bunch of strong results in smaller stage races as well.

Landa however is the most obvious doper behind the big three in the current Tour.
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Re: Dumoulin.

21 Jul 2018 09:05

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:U23 results or lack thereof in mountains tell you nothing. :lol: From the moment Dumoulin became professional he started improving his results uphill, slowly but surely.

And then suddenly very quickly.

You might be biased considering where you're from.
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21 Jul 2018 09:08

I wouldn't say Hinault dominated the 1983 Vuelta. 1978 perhaps, but 1983, no. That was in large part the reason he didn't do the Tour that year. It was also the start of his rivalry with Fignon, having a tantrum at his young helper for attacking in a Catalan stage which Lejarreta responded to and Hinault couldn't; he took the race lead after marking Lejarreta to Castellar de'n Hug but lost it the next day panicking on a descent when Lejarreta, Delgado and Gorospe attacked him. On the Cronoescalada to Baños de Panticosa, he was nearly overtaken by Alberto Fernández, who didn't even win the stage - Lejarreta beat the Frenchman by over 2 minutes. Hinault won the race by being more astute in the crosswinds, when the péloton split in the stage to Soria, to put himself back in the mix, recruiting Saronni to help him escape for some extra seconds in another flat stage, then winning the TT in Valladolid. He was being booed and jeered everywhere he went as it was felt that the foreign teams were ganging up together, especially the chosen pantomime villain Saronni, who had come claiming intent to win, feigned illness, then rode like on a Sunday ride, except to assist Hinault on occasion (this was perhaps one of the features that led to the 1985 "Stolen Vuelta"). Even then, he was still over a minute down and had to pull out an all time epic ride over the Alto de Peña Negra and Puerto de Serranillos to win the race. He was suffering from tendonitis over the last couple of days but refused to get off so close to victory (unlike Séan Kelly of course, who four years later had to withdraw while leading the race due to an absurdly inflamed saddle sore).
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Re: Re:

21 Jul 2018 09:21

Saint Unix wrote:
dacooley wrote:that's a kind of reasoning which can be with ease applied to any breakthrough performance. from quintana in the 2013 tour to landa in the 2015 giro.

Hilariously wrong about Quintana.

Quintana won l'Avenir in 2010, won a mountain stage that went over Joux Plane at the 2012 Dauphine, finished 6th (behind a two man breakaway, so 4th among the strongest climbers) on this stage of the 2012 Vuelta, finished 11th at the 2012 Lombardia and won Pais Vasco in 2013, in addition to a bunch of strong results in smaller stage races as well.

Landa however is the most obvious doper behind the big three in the current Tour.

Nobody equals froome's transformation to what quintana did. But it's not like there's one little step between winning dauphine stage where sky pretty much enabled him to ride away and thrashing the field in the 2013 tour. needless to say, one might fancy what physical and doping resource outclimbing froome in 2013 and 2015 had to took. ;)

almost certainly, anyone of elite gc riders must be heavily doping, but drawing the line between those whose talent kind of allows them to use doping and others who simply don't have particular innate ability is pure taste judgement. why should I give Quintana more credibility than Dimoulin? It doesnt make sense.
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Re: Re:

23 Jul 2018 00:51

Now if we look at TD (this thread) and the Sky boys (other threads), it's clear they are doping. But that these are basically TT guys climbing with the best is simply nothing new at all. It's actually how it used to be, with a bit less "gifts" nowadays. => 1984 1986 are years where the TT guys also didn't gift stages to climbers. Lemond and Fignon won most climbing stages those years, blowing away the Postobon guys, Delgado, the Dutch climbers. In 1985 Herrera had a good year, but he was also quite in the pocket of Hinault (who also had that terrible crash halfway).


I like Tom, but you’re wrong here. Delgado and Herrera put time into LeMond in 1985 in the mountains. Don’t have the exact figures, but both were so far down after the flat stages they were basically ignored. Delgado put roughly 2 minutes into LeMond in the mountains. Herrera put in even more time. In 1986, Herrera was subpar and Delgado abandoned on Alpe d’huez and would likely have podiumed that year considering Zimmerman’s 7 minute collapse on that stage. In 1989, Herrera was subpar again, but Delgado gained over 5 minutes on LeMond and Fignon in the mtn stages in total since they didn’t follow him due to his earlier losses.
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Re: Re:

23 Jul 2018 01:28

dacooley wrote:
dacooley wrote:
DFA123 wrote:
dacooley wrote:Damn, DFA, you appear to be so knowledgeable about cycling in a broad sense, but so poisonously biased when it comes to all-rounders and diesel-climbers like Dimoulin, Thomas or Froome. Arghhh...

They aren't diesel climbers any more though. Dumoulin was in 2015 and 2017 when he dieseled his way to great GT results. But this year has been different; he's been regularly responding to and making all kinds of attacks.

It was the climbers like Landa and Quintana doing the steady paced efforts yesterday and still leaking time. Dumoulin, Froome and Thomas were the ones doing stop-start intervals in the last 4km and still pulling out time. It's pretty incongruous.

Why? They really largely are at this point at least. When Quintana, Landa or Bardet get dropped, it's almost the end, which you can't say about Froome, Dimoulin or Thomas in his current shape because they are stunning at riding tempo uphill, steadily reeling attackers in.

This guy is just another donkey to racehorse transformation, certainly in terms of his climbing.

that's a kind of reasoning which can be with ease applied to any breakthrough performance. from quintana in the 2013 tour to landa in the 2015 giro.

Does this mean that you only watch cycling in July?

Roundabout makes a good point that I have not seen before. I wanted to believe in Dumo TBH. Not sure now.
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Re: Re:

23 Jul 2018 01:33

dacooley wrote:
DFA123 wrote:
dacooley wrote:Damn, DFA, you appear to be so knowledgeable about cycling in a broad sense, but so poisonously biased when it comes to all-rounders and diesel-climbers like Dimoulin, Thomas or Froome. Arghhh...

They aren't diesel climbers any more though. Dumoulin was in 2015 and 2017 when he dieseled his way to great GT results. But this year has been different; he's been regularly responding to and making all kinds of attacks.

It was the climbers like Landa and Quintana doing the steady paced efforts yesterday and still leaking time. Dumoulin, Froome and Thomas were the ones doing stop-start intervals in the last 4km and still pulling out time. It's pretty incongruous.

Why? They really largely are at this point at least. When Quintana, Landa or Bardet get dropped, it's almost the end, which you can't say about Froome, Dimoulin or Thomas in his current shape because they are stunning at riding tempo uphill, steadily reeling attackers in.



Remember, if we are talking Landa and the 2018 Tour, his back is hurt from the crash on stage 9. I don't care what you are or aren't using a hurt back is going to give you issues.
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Re: Re:

23 Jul 2018 13:43

dacooley wrote:
Saint Unix wrote:
dacooley wrote:that's a kind of reasoning which can be with ease applied to any breakthrough performance. from quintana in the 2013 tour to landa in the 2015 giro.

Hilariously wrong about Quintana.

Quintana won l'Avenir in 2010, won a mountain stage that went over Joux Plane at the 2012 Dauphine, finished 6th (behind a two man breakaway, so 4th among the strongest climbers) on this stage of the 2012 Vuelta, finished 11th at the 2012 Lombardia and won Pais Vasco in 2013, in addition to a bunch of strong results in smaller stage races as well.

Landa however is the most obvious doper behind the big three in the current Tour.

Nobody equals froome's transformation to what quintana did. But it's not like there's one little step between winning dauphine stage where sky pretty much enabled him to ride away and thrashing the field in the 2013 tour. needless to say, one might fancy what physical and doping resource outclimbing froome in 2013 and 2015 had to took. ;)

almost certainly, anyone of elite gc riders must be heavily doping, but drawing the line between those whose talent kind of allows them to use doping and others who simply don't have particular innate ability is pure taste judgement. why should I give Quintana more credibility than Dimoulin? It doesnt make sense.


Except Quintana was/is elite climber right from the beginning, you maybe missed that fact :rolleyes:
He won numerous races and MTF before that Tour 2013, he won stages at Catalunya, Dauphine, Pais Vasco, won Pais Vasco overall, won Murcia, Giro dell'Emilia, climbed on par with Contador, Purito and Valverde at Vuelta 2012, dropping certain Christopher Froome in the process :eek:
Dumoulin, on the other hand, showed one big nothing in the mountains prior to Vuelta 2015!
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Re: Re:

23 Jul 2018 16:06

perico wrote:
I like Tom, but you’re wrong here. Delgado and Herrera put time into LeMond in 1985 in the mountains.


Hence 1984 (fignon put everyone to the sword) and 1986 (Hinault/Lemond took everyone to task, even with the crazy Pyrenees attack).

In 1985 Herrera was almost certainly cooperating with Hinault (you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours principle), but that terrible crash makes that one kinda special, because Hinault then started to loose a lot of ground, jeopardizing his fifth win.

In 1989, Herrera was subpar again, but Delgado gained over 5 minutes on LeMond and Fignon in the mtn stages in total since they didn’t follow him due to his earlier losses.


You are partly right; Delgado gained time in the mountains, but it was 30 seconds of time ;) At the same time, he lost only about a minute in the ITT to Fignon (if we forget the prologue).

As it is, pure climbers winning a GT was rare before Epo. Of course, we can name a few (Van Impe, Delgado, Herrera, but they are quite the exception). And Van Impe/Delgado could top three in a flat TT if need be (Van Impe 1983, Delgado in that oh so insane 1989, beating even Fignon in the first long ITT).

Point remains, we should not be in arms about a TT rider beating a climber in the mountains. That's not an easy to interpret indicator of doping. If anything, it has actually been the norm.

However, as MI correctly states, that does not mean that every ITT specialist can be "transformed" into GT winner, there needs to be an innate ability.
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 15:20

Franklin wrote:
perico wrote:
I like Tom, but you’re wrong here. Delgado and Herrera put time into LeMond in 1985 in the mountains.


Hence 1984 (fignon put everyone to the sword) and 1986 (Hinault/Lemond took everyone to task, even with the crazy Pyrenees attack).

In 1985 Herrera was almost certainly cooperating with Hinault (you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours principle), but that terrible crash makes that one kinda special, because Hinault then started to loose a lot of ground, jeopardizing his fifth win.

In 1989, Herrera was subpar again, but Delgado gained over 5 minutes on LeMond and Fignon in the mtn stages in total since they didn’t follow him due to his earlier losses.


You are partly right; Delgado gained time in the mountains, but it was 30 seconds of time ;) At the same time, he lost only about a minute in the ITT to Fignon (if we forget the prologue).

As it is, pure climbers winning a GT was rare before Epo. Of course, we can name a few (Van Impe, Delgado, Herrera, but they are quite the exception). And Van Impe/Delgado could top three in a flat TT if need be (Van Impe 1983, Delgado in that oh so insane 1989, beating even Fignon in the first long ITT).

Point remains, we should not be in arms about a TT rider beating a climber in the mountains. That's not an easy to interpret indicator of doping. If anything, it has actually been the norm.

However, as MI correctly states, that does not mean that every ITT specialist can be "transformed" into GT winner, there needs to be an innate ability.



Wrong again. Delgado gained 3:25 on stage 10 to Superbagneres over Fignon and more over LeMond. Most of his time lost didn’t come from the prologue, but the TTT.

I went back and added the time gained in the mountain stages in the 1985 Tour compared to the flat stages as well. Both Herrera and Delgado put roughly 3 minutes and 30 seconds into LeMond, Hinault etc on the mountain stages.

In 1984, I haven’t added the time gained to Herrera, Delgado, Robert Millar or any top pure climber yet. It may be the outlier where the winner did put time into them.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120111022351/http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdf/tour_de_france.php
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 15:55

Blanco wrote:
dacooley wrote:
Saint Unix wrote:
dacooley wrote:that's a kind of reasoning which can be with ease applied to any breakthrough performance. from quintana in the 2013 tour to landa in the 2015 giro.

Hilariously wrong about Quintana.

Quintana won l'Avenir in 2010, won a mountain stage that went over Joux Plane at the 2012 Dauphine, finished 6th (behind a two man breakaway, so 4th among the strongest climbers) on this stage of the 2012 Vuelta, finished 11th at the 2012 Lombardia and won Pais Vasco in 2013, in addition to a bunch of strong results in smaller stage races as well.

Landa however is the most obvious doper behind the big three in the current Tour.

Nobody equals froome's transformation to what quintana did. But it's not like there's one little step between winning dauphine stage where sky pretty much enabled him to ride away and thrashing the field in the 2013 tour. needless to say, one might fancy what physical and doping resource outclimbing froome in 2013 and 2015 had to took. ;)

almost certainly, anyone of elite gc riders must be heavily doping, but drawing the line between those whose talent kind of allows them to use doping and others who simply don't have particular innate ability is pure taste judgement. why should I give Quintana more credibility than Dimoulin? It doesnt make sense.


Except Quintana was/is elite climber right from the beginning, you maybe missed that fact :rolleyes:
He won numerous races and MTF before that Tour 2013, he won stages at Catalunya, Dauphine, Pais Vasco, won Pais Vasco overall, won Murcia, Giro dell'Emilia, climbed on par with Contador, Purito and Valverde at Vuelta 2012, dropping certain Christopher Froome in the process :eek:
Dumoulin, on the other hand, showed one big nothing in the mountains prior to Vuelta 2015!

what are you getting at? being an elite climber / all-rounder straight from the start of career gives more grounds to be a more credible doper or something like that?
after froome had knocked out dimoulin in the jafferau stage, the dutch was treated as a very likeable guy, who thankfully could keep hope alive in an unequal battle against froome for a long while. but once it got clear that dimoulin is as strong as froome in two consecutive gts on aggregate, there's no mercy to him either. :o
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 16:16

dacooley wrote:what are you getting at? being an elite climber / all-rounder straight from the start of career gives more grounds to be a more credible doper or something like that?


You made it seem like Quintana came out from a hole in the ground before that 2013 Tour. You were proven wrong. Stop shifting the goal posts and making this about something else.

Everyone who knew anything about cycling before that 2013 Tour were excited about what Quintana would do before the race had even begun, because he had looked like a generational climbing talent for years beforehand. Compare that to Wiggins at the 2009 Tour, Froome at the 2011 Vuelta, Horner at the 2013 Vuelta or Dumoulin at the 2015 Vuelta. All those performances were pretty much pure WTF moments that came more or less out of the blue.
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 16:45

Saint Unix wrote:
dacooley wrote:what are you getting at? being an elite climber / all-rounder straight from the start of career gives more grounds to be a more credible doper or something like that?


You made it seem like Quintana came out from a hole in the ground before that 2013 Tour. You were proven wrong. Stop shifting the goal posts and making this about something else.

Everyone who knew anything about cycling before that 2013 Tour were excited about what Quintana would do before the race had even begun, because he had looked like a generational climbing talent for years beforehand. Compare that to Wiggins at the 2009 Tour, Froome at the 2011 Vuelta, Horner at the 2013 Vuelta or Dumoulin at the 2015 Vuelta. All those performances were pretty much pure WTF moments that came more or less out of the blue.

Who questions Quintana having possessed much of talent prior the 2013 Tour? What I'm talking about is it's not like tremendous talent legalises using doping. Dimoulin and Froome winning because of doping, while Quintana winning thanks to enormous talent is what I'm calling a complete BS. That's it.
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 16:47

dacooley wrote:Who questions Quintana having possessed much of talent prior the 2013 Tour? What I'm talking about is it's not like tremendous talent legalises using doping. Dimoulin and Froome winning because of doping, while Quintana winning thanks to enormous talent is what I'm calling a complete BS. That's it.

You.

"This guy is just another donkey to racehorse transformation, certainly in terms of his climbing."

to which you responded

that's a kind of reasoning which can be with ease applied to any breakthrough performance. from quintana in the 2013 Tour...


Quintana never showed signs of being a donkey.
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