Log in:  

Register

The Froome Files, test data only thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Eshnar, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

Re:

09 Jan 2018 19:26

macbindle wrote:Whilst BB has a point, I'd be surprised at such a wide variance of MHR between full condition and off season. I think thehog has a good point... If the Ventoux data is correct and the Strava data is correct, then it doesn't make sense.

However, the assumption that Froome has removed the data because it is suspicious might be false. My friends who are serious TTers never put their data on Strava when training seriously.


Agreed, but a very very big IF, which really sums up why i don't see anything to raise suspicions here.

Having recently had the unfortunate experience of sitting for a few hours with a good friend in ICU, i was amazed by what the medical staff considered to be perfectly normal drop outs and short erratic readings from the high tech HR monitors used in this setting.

What hope can there be for absolute accuracy in the £40 plastic belts we wear for cycling?

Whilst useful for tracking general fitness and performance trends, i really do think HR data is one of the least reliable and therefore significant measures we can look at to support suspicions of foul play.
brownbobby
Member
 
Posts: 882
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 07:14

Re: The Froome Files, test data only thread

09 Jan 2018 19:37

The heartrate belt slipped off in the GSK testing, later on ride London it slipped off again as Velon were transmitting it to TV. In one article he explained his max to be 174, his book 165, the Ventoux leaked file was at 161 during his seated accelerations and slows downs. The 2007 fax states 161.

Considering this is Froome nothing adds up.
User avatar thehog
Veteran
 
Posts: 21,481
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 20:00

Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 19:38

thehog wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
thehog wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
hazaran wrote:Given the HR nosedives, then explodes into the air and he is not even on a particularly hard point (certainly the speed doesn't do anything), congratulations, you have just learned that HR belts occasionally measure bad data.


Whilst i agree entirely with you about the occasional erratic measurements (apparently i hit 230bpm recently, didnt even feel like i was trying :lol: ), the spike does seem to align with the the first and only significant climb of the ride, so im guessing he did put in one big effort on an otherwise controlled zone 2 ride. Wether he actually hit 183 or not is another matter.


This is not a spike though. Spikes last mere seconds. This is a consistent uptick to 183 and held for several kilometers.


You're interpreting the data/graph differently to me, i'm seeing a sudden but fairly linear rise to an absolute max of 183 for mere seconds, followed by an equivalent sudden but linear drop back down to 105ish, Between this rise and fall, there is no 'flat' section at the peak which would represent the peak being held for any length of time whatsoever, let alone several kilometres.


Look at the distance. The graph is condensed to appear on a single screen. The “glitch” lasts for 10km with rise in gradient. Prior to that between 20km and 30km it rises in line with an increase in the graidant. A glitch is a sudden spark up then down again over a few seconds, if that.

(apologies for the poor marking up, I did on my phone).

Image


I see and understood exactly the section you're referring to and the associated scale, but he is only at 183 for a very short time. He spends several km's rising gradually from 105-183, then immediately starts dropping again 183-105. You would probably say that his average HR in the period/distance you highlight is around 150.

Sorry, maybe we're talking at cross purposes here but i don't know how else to explain my interpretation in words, so maybe this is one of those times when we just have to agree to disagree.
brownbobby
Member
 
Posts: 882
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 07:14

Re: The Froome Files, test data only thread

09 Jan 2018 19:49

thehog wrote:The heartrate belt slipped off in the GSK testing, later on ride London it slipped off again as Velon were transmitting it to TV. In one article he explained his max to be 174, his book 165, the Ventoux leaked file was at 161 during his seated accelerations and slows downs. The 2007 fax states 161.

Considering this is Froome nothing adds up.


I know this does all sound horribly convenient in the context of the overall suspicion surrounding Froome, but this is one set of excuses i'm ready to accept.

Simply because i and most other people who use HR monitors during rides will know that this is exactly what happens. Especially during high intensity efforts....sweat builds up, belts become damp and lose grip, contact patches are lost, and readings just go haywire. Froome is using exactly the same equipment as us mortals in this regard.

As i said earlier, most things about Froome don't add up. This for me is one of the rare things that do.
brownbobby
Member
 
Posts: 882
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 07:14

Re: The Froome Files, test data only thread

09 Jan 2018 19:57

brownbobby wrote:
thehog wrote:The heartrate belt slipped off in the GSK testing, later on ride London it slipped off again as Velon were transmitting it to TV. In one article he explained his max to be 174, his book 165, the Ventoux leaked file was at 161 during his seated accelerations and slows downs. The 2007 fax states 161.

Considering this is Froome nothing adds up.


I know this does all sound horribly convenient in the context of the overall suspicion surrounding Froome, but this is one set of excuses i'm ready to accept.

Simply because i and most other people who use HR monitors during rides will know that this is exactly what happens. Especially during high intensity efforts....sweat builds up, belts become damp and lose grip, contact patches are lost, and readings just go haywire. Froome is using exactly the same equipment as us mortals in this regard.

As i said earlier, most things about Froome don't add up. This for me is one of the rare things that do.


The Ventoux video with heartrate and power transposed doesn’t add up. Period.
User avatar thehog
Veteran
 
Posts: 21,481
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 20:00

Re: The Froome Files, test data only thread

09 Jan 2018 20:02

thehog wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
thehog wrote:The heartrate belt slipped off in the GSK testing, later on ride London it slipped off again as Velon were transmitting it to TV. In one article he explained his max to be 174, his book 165, the Ventoux leaked file was at 161 during his seated accelerations and slows downs. The 2007 fax states 161.

Considering this is Froome nothing adds up.


I know this does all sound horribly convenient in the context of the overall suspicion surrounding Froome, but this is one set of excuses i'm ready to accept.

Simply because i and most other people who use HR monitors during rides will know that this is exactly what happens. Especially during high intensity efforts....sweat builds up, belts become damp and lose grip, contact patches are lost, and readings just go haywire. Froome is using exactly the same equipment as us mortals in this regard.

As i said earlier, most things about Froome don't add up. This for me is one of the rare things that do.


The Ventoux video with heartrate and power transposed doesn’t add up. Period.


On that specifically we agree. That remains one of my favourite sci fi videos :D
brownbobby
Member
 
Posts: 882
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 07:14

09 Jan 2018 20:04

183bpm is not relevant in and of itself. What is relevant is the time accumulated over his alleged Max. Just a measurement error lasting a prolonged time of course. Probably caused by a tailwind too.
User avatar meat puppet
Member
 
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 29 May 2011 06:57

Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 20:06

thehog wrote:
Look at the distance. The graph is condensed to appear on a single screen. The “glitch” lasts for 10km with rise in gradient. Prior to that between 20km and 30km it rises in line with an increase in the graidant. A glitch is a sudden spark up then down again over a few seconds, if that.

(apologies for the poor marking up, I did on my phone).

Image

I find it weird he can go 50 km over a steady climb and descent (kilometers 125 to 175) with no change in heart rate OR speed. Meh.

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,733
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re: The Froome Files, test data only thread

09 Jan 2018 20:09

thehog wrote:The heartrate belt slipped off in the GSK testing, later on ride London it slipped off again as Velon were transmitting it to TV. In one article he explained his max to be 174, his book 165, the Ventoux leaked file was at 161 during his seated accelerations and slows downs. The 2007 fax states 161.

Considering this is Froome nothing adds up.


And as I posted earlier Michelle says that during one of the ITT's in Tour 2013 his HR was at max 167 bpm. The 174 max comes from Kerisson during the infamous Froome "data" for the nuclear PSM stage in Tour 2015 along with the 5.78 W/kg joke. Swart was unable to measure his max heart rate so somehow that Kerisson number 174 keeps coming up. In the famous fax from 2007 before he "lost the fat" his maximal heart rate was noted at 161. So, what we are basically witnessing here is a never-before measured maximum heart rate for Froome, something that we were led to believe it was impossible. Is this Froome? Is this his bike?
User avatar Rollthedice
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,530
Joined: 11 May 2013 10:59

Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 20:21

ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
Look at the distance. The graph is condensed to appear on a single screen. The “glitch” lasts for 10km with rise in gradient. Prior to that between 20km and 30km it rises in line with an increase in the graidant. A glitch is a sudden spark up then down again over a few seconds, if that.

(apologies for the poor marking up, I did on my phone).

Image

I find it weird he can go 50 km over a steady climb and descent (kilometers 125 to 175) with no change in heart rate OR speed. Meh.

John Swanson


Eh??

No change in speed, apart from the constant fluctuations between 20kph and 70kph.

The one effort excluded, this data perfectly aligns with a rider varying speed and cadence in line with terrain changes to try and spend as much time as possible in zone 2. It's a textbook example of a ride you'd expect to see a professional cyclist doing at this time of the year.
brownbobby
Member
 
Posts: 882
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 07:14

Re:

09 Jan 2018 20:51

meat puppet wrote:183bpm is not relevant in and of itself. What is relevant is the time accumulated over his alleged Max. Just a measurement error lasting a prolonged time of course. Probably caused by a tailwind too.


Of course, I forgot to factor in the tailwind! :lol:
User avatar thehog
Veteran
 
Posts: 21,481
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 20:00

09 Jan 2018 23:41

Wouldn't take anything as definitive from a Stages/Garmin HR strap. They spike for a minute or so occasionally. First time I saw it in Training Peaks, mine was spiked at 203bpm one ride for about 30 seconds on a climb & I was convinced I must be ill and stopped training, then it happened again and Garmin & Stages forums are full of people seeing these spikes of 10-20bpm+ above what their known MAX HR usually is and you just ignore it as a HR Strap issue after that. End of the day it's Ant+ or BT transmission sending an electrical signal detection and and it's not always perfect. Take a HR strap and rapidly shake it in your hand and you canget a HR reading lol! It's not that accurate.
samhocking
Member
 
Posts: 1,862
Joined: 13 Mar 2013 22:44

Re:

10 Jan 2018 09:41

Machine calibration error!
Wiggo's Package
Member
 
Posts: 553
Joined: 07 Mar 2017 14:27

Re:

10 Jan 2018 16:32

samhocking wrote:Wouldn't take anything as definitive from a Stages/Garmin HR strap. They spike for a minute or so occasionally. First time I saw it in Training Peaks, mine was spiked at 203bpm one ride for about 30 seconds on a climb & I was convinced I must be ill and stopped training, then it happened again and Garmin & Stages forums are full of people seeing these spikes of 10-20bpm+ above what their known MAX HR usually is and you just ignore it as a HR Strap issue after that. End of the day it's Ant+ or BT transmission sending an electrical signal detection and and it's not always perfect. Take a HR strap and rapidly shake it in your hand and you canget a HR reading lol! It's not that accurate.


Don’t be stupid. The leaked Ventoux video came from raw data. Funny how it didn’t have these so called “spikes” for minutes on end. Naturally it was normalized data which Strava also accounts for. I think we can dismiss faulty heartrate readings.
User avatar thehog
Veteran
 
Posts: 21,481
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 20:00

10 Jan 2018 16:44

It looks like he does 2 intervals starting at 22km into the ride
In the first he goes up to 160bpm over 3k then he brings his hr down over next 3k
The second he goes up to 183bpm over 5k and brings his rate down again over 5k
Then relatively constant for remainder of the ride
User avatar 70kmph
Member
 
Posts: 577
Joined: 31 May 2010 00:06

10 Jan 2018 21:45

Just for reference, I looked at the chart Hog posted and added some horizontal lines to help provide some relative visual cues.

Two pink lines to show the minimum and maximum HR values reported (63bpm and 183bpm), and a blue line at 170bpm using the chart scale to the nearest pixel I could draw.

Image
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,269
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 23:47
Location: Australia

Re:

11 Jan 2018 09:06

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Just for reference, I looked at the chart Hog posted and added some horizontal lines to help provide some relative visual cues.

Two pink lines to show the minimum and maximum HR values reported (63bpm and 183bpm), and a blue line at 170bpm using the chart scale to the nearest pixel I could draw.

Image


i think the issue being that the 'blip' if its a blip...fits exactly with the increase and decrease of heart rate below it...not at some point during the long period at 150bpm for example.....the blip therefore would appear to last for the length of time of that longer cycle which would suggest its not a blip at all.....

as users of these things will know...there are variations but not usually by this much and if there were you would probably junk the ones which gave you crazy readings in favour of ones closer to the 'real' data readings....especially if you had access to as many models as you wanted and/or your budget was the size of froomes/sky

which is of course why when he asks what more he could do, before getting Swart to give him a one off test...he could publish data all his training data.....we know that there'll be anomalies...we can work with that....which of course...would appear to be the problem ;)
gillan1969
Member
 
Posts: 1,478
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 12:25

11 Jan 2018 09:50

Trying to interpret HR traces is a bit like reading tea leaves.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,269
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 23:47
Location: Australia

Re:

11 Jan 2018 20:08

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Trying to interpret HR traces is a bit like reading tea leaves.


well, you say that...it may not represent the 100% correlation a scientist seeks but its a good fit...and one which you and your community(depending on your age) would have been advocating not too long ago as the best training aid available....

mine generally correlates pretty well with effort

so not really like reading tea leaves

of course we may read a sport scientist in 30 years debunking your current theories as tea leaves ;)
gillan1969
Member
 
Posts: 1,478
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 12:25

Re:

11 Jan 2018 20:23

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Just for reference, I looked at the chart Hog posted and added some horizontal lines to help provide some relative visual cues.
Two pink lines to show the minimum and maximum HR values reported (63bpm and 183bpm), and a blue line at 170bpm using the chart scale to the nearest pixel I could draw.


Resting heart rate of python snakes is about 25 BPM.
If Froome has a python strapped around his heart-rate monitor, with heartbeat of said snake out of sync with his own, then would there not be an additive registration :

Froome 160
Python 25
--------------
185 BPM !


Image[/quote]

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/204/20/3553

Come on, guys :p
ClassicomanoLuigi
Member
 
Posts: 536
Joined: 06 Jul 2016 03:20

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: infeXio and 20 guests

Back to top