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The Froome Files, test data only thread

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Re:

17 Jan 2017 16:07

sniper wrote:He's anonymous, therefore he has no credibility :rolleyes:


Is that what you think?

Seems a bit harsh to dismiss him for that.
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User avatar King Boonen
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17 Jan 2017 16:17

I would be more inclined to think (if the story is true) that he is taking something in addition to EPO, or that his response is an outlier. The common response to EPO in healthy and sick patients is hypertension due to vasoconstriction and this has been published in the literature. In the case of EPO, Hypertension is partially independent of HCT. His BP went down by ~10%. The numbers just don't really add up, but it could be an outlier.
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Re:

17 Jan 2017 16:24

djpbaltimore wrote:I would be more inclined to think (if the story is true) that he is taking something in addition to EPO, or that his response is an outlier. The common response to EPO in healthy and sick patients is hypertension due to vasoconstriction and this has been published in the literature. In the case of EPO, Hypertension is partially independent of HCT. His BP went down by ~10%. The numbers just don't really add up, but it could be an outlier.


I'm not sure I'd even give it that much thought. He provides none of the useful information to assess those numbers. He doesn't say at what point during the day these single measurements were taken, Just that it was the same hour. There is no T0 before doping, there is no dose information and then, after reporting single measurements previously he reports two measurements for the final day with no explanation. There is no info how the measurements were taken either. It's worthless.
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17 Jan 2017 16:38

Valid points, KB. Garbage in... garbage out....
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Re: Re:

17 Jan 2017 20:39

thehog wrote:
djpbaltimore wrote:Thank you, VERITAS. I appreciate it.

Interesting that it is written as first person although it is a story about someone else. That is a red flag for me. This should've been included for context in the original quote.


You'd be hard pushed to find a decent study on athletes taking EPO and the responses on the human body. Most of that is on Leinders, Ferrari and Fuentes hard drives etc.

This was a decent, anecdotal account, it wasn't trying to be a scientific study by its own self-admission. So probably stop it with the 'red flag' business, that it kinda stupid for the type of detail it contains.


There are studies out there on BodyBuilders forums and the like. You're not going to see a full scale published study. Mark Daly did one (from BBC) and his results were very good but he did say he didn't notice much change with his heart rate (I spoke to him).

What about a real world example? Luckily for us, Captaintbag—a mysterious cycling blogger—has done the math. The numbers are solid, and based around one very basic relationship, Joyner says. Haemoglobin—a protein which carries oxygen—and your VO2 max are naturally linked. Captaintbag can estimate the changes in a rider’s haemoglobin based on how much EPO he is taking (or blood he is transfusing). From there, he can predict the rider’s new VO2 max and threshold power. In other words, he can tell you how quickly a rider can race clean, and on the program.

The numbers are startling. In one example, Captaintbag looked at the power output of domestic pro cyclist Brad Huff and put him on three simulated doping programs—a very-low dose that probably wouldn’t get you caught, a medium-dose (which might also fly under the radar), or a high “Postal” dose.

The results: From putting out 4.875 watts/kg at threshold, Huff could see his numbers rise to 5.25 watts/kg on the very-low dose program, 5.44 watts/kg on the medium dose, and 5.74 watts/kg on the “Postal” program—up to a 17 percent increase. “Presumming that he’d still be wurth [sic] a damn after 4hrs/ he’s not quite winning GTs [grand tours like the Tour de France]/ he’s a sprinter anyways/ but its [sic] a likely ticket to europe [sic],” Captaintbag writes in verse.

THE BOTTOM LINE: There’s no denying that EPO enhances performance. In fact, it can turn low-level pros into world class riders.
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Re:

17 Jan 2017 20:57

V3R1T4S wrote:Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.

Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.
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Re: Re:

17 Jan 2017 21:10

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
V3R1T4S wrote:Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.

Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.


Its not looked down upon all. You know as well as I do, studies on elite athletes using EPO are rarer than gold dust. The fact that you ask for one shows you were just posturing. There's plenty of home grown studies out there and Dr. Ferrari no doubt has many. I just thought the heart rate aspect to EPO use is interesting. Most suggest the same.
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Re: Re:

18 Jan 2017 03:34

thehog wrote:You know as well as I do, studies on elite athletes using EPO are rarer than gold dust. The fact that you ask for one shows you were just posturing.

When did I ever ask for such a study?
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Re: Re:

18 Jan 2017 04:08

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
V3R1T4S wrote:Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.

Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.


Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]
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Re: Re:

18 Jan 2017 04:43

V3R1T4S wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
V3R1T4S wrote:Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.

Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.


Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]

It was just a simple request, even for a pub chat. There would be no tit for tat if some basic etiquette of posting the source link along with a quote was done in the first place. I don't see why readers should be expected to verify every random tidbit thrown out there.
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Re: Re:

18 Jan 2017 06:14

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
V3R1T4S wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
V3R1T4S wrote:Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.

Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.


Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]

It was just a simple request, even for a pub chat. There would be no tit for tat if some basic etiquette of posting the source link along with a quote was done in the first place. I don't see why readers should be expected to verify every random tidbit thrown out there.


That's fair and something I can get behind.

To hopefully contribute to the discussion: In "The Secret Race" TH talks a lot about EPO & HR and also the drop in hematocrit over a three-week race. Far from a peer-reviewed article, I agree, but more credible than the internet. On page 60 he talks about the general rule of thumb of ~2 points HcT drop per week. On page 106 he details how a regimen of EPO lowered his Madone time and shifted his max heart rate from 177 to 191. Later in the book (I can not find it but my memory recalls) him talking about either EPO or BBs and being able to push through your limits even though you think you are at them. He talks a little about it on page 129 but I believe there is a more detailed discussion elsewhere.

It would also make sense physiologically since the heart is a muscle so the more oxygenation it has the higher its maximum is and the less it has to work at submaximal levels to provide the same oxygenation to other working muscles -- the exact opposite of going to altitude, for example. This is also consistent with hyperoxic training/supplemental O2 use.

But back to the original point of contention about knowing Froome's hematocrit at an isolated day in the middle of the Tour: I believe almost nothing can be inferred.
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Re: Re:

18 Jan 2017 08:19

V3R1T4S wrote:
To hopefully contribute to the discussion: In "The Secret Race" TH talks a lot about EPO & HR and also the drop in hematocrit over a three-week race. Far from a peer-reviewed article, I agree, but more credible than the internet. On page 60 he talks about the general rule of thumb of ~2 points HcT drop per week. On page 106 he details how a regimen of EPO lowered his Madone time and shifted his max heart rate from 177 to 191. Later in the book (I can not find it but my memory recalls) him talking about either EPO or BBs and being able to push through your limits even though you think you are at them. He talks a little about it on page 129 but I believe there is a more detailed discussion elsewhere.


thanks for pointing that out. I haven't read Hamilton's book yet.
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Re: Re:

18 Jan 2017 14:04

V3R1T4S wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
V3R1T4S wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
V3R1T4S wrote:Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.

Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.


Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]

It was just a simple request, even for a pub chat. There would be no tit for tat if some basic etiquette of posting the source link along with a quote was done in the first place. I don't see why readers should be expected to verify every random tidbit thrown out there.


That's fair and something I can get behind.

To hopefully contribute to the discussion: In "The Secret Race" TH talks a lot about EPO & HR and also the drop in hematocrit over a three-week race. Far from a peer-reviewed article, I agree, but more credible than the internet. On page 60 he talks about the general rule of thumb of ~2 points HcT drop per week. On page 106 he details how a regimen of EPO lowered his Madone time and shifted his max heart rate from 177 to 191. Later in the book (I can not find it but my memory recalls) him talking about either EPO or BBs and being able to push through your limits even though you think you are at them. He talks a little about it on page 129 but I believe there is a more detailed discussion elsewhere.

It would also make sense physiologically since the heart is a muscle so the more oxygenation it has the higher its maximum is and the less it has to work at submaximal levels to provide the same oxygenation to other working muscles -- the exact opposite of going to altitude, for example. This is also consistent with hyperoxic training/supplemental O2 use.

But back to the original point of contention about knowing Froome's hematocrit at an isolated day in the middle of the Tour: I believe almost nothing can be inferred.


He's talking about Blood Bags with this pushing though comment. He says Riis tells him to keep going when he thinks hes at the limit after a transfusion.
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Re: Re:

18 Jan 2017 14:09

V3R1T4S wrote:Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]
My apologies, VERITAS. I am sorry for disturbing your forum experience. But when a source is asked for and not provided, that is worthy of a followup considering the peculiar nature of the anecdote. Whenever I have been asked for sources, like in the LeMond thread, I have readily supplied them. If you would like to police the forum in the future, maybe it would be wise if you volunteered to be MOD next time that they are looking for one.
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Re: The Froome Files, test data only thread

25 Aug 2017 13:56

Froome is looking hot in this Vuelta. Fully expect him to break through his test numbers in the coming days.
Last edited by thehog on 31 Aug 2017 04:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Froome Files, test data only thread

31 Aug 2017 04:45

I think it's safe to say now that Froome may have lost some fat but he certainly has gained some chemical assistance. This type of engine wasn't always there. It's alarming to see this type of power after a Tour and well above his test figures.

Image
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Re: The Froome Files, test data only thread

31 Aug 2017 08:12

thehog wrote:I think it's safe to say now that Froome may have lost some fat but he certainly has gained some chemical assistance. This type of engine wasn't always there. It's alarming to see this type of power after a Tour and well above his test figures.

Image


Really, really high numbers for a second GT.

Generally i think we are much closer to the EPO years than to the clean years where everything above 6W/kg on a 10 min effort would have made you an absolute top star.

All in all the whole field stepped up it seems. I think after Armstrong gone again and many of the big names involved in Operacion Puerto in the years before and also the busting of Cera guys and Contador, cycling wasn't on a bad way in 2011. Speeds were down, but than Vuelta happened and we saw the rise of Team Sky shooting the speeds through the roofs.

Hell, the only year Bertie was stronger than Froome was his 2009 Tour. And even there Verbier was the outlier which increased avarage. Although i am dure Amstrongs comeback also had to do with it.

Funny enough - the “slowest“ Tour winner in recent years was Landis, also he was the only one to get popped.

Image
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31 Aug 2017 10:11

Nibali with the strongest Tour in the Froome Era. hehe
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31 Aug 2017 10:21

Contador with staggering figures in 2009....filthiest since the Armstrong peak years.
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Re:

31 Aug 2017 10:27

deviant wrote:Contador with staggering figures in 2009....filthiest since the Armstrong peak years.

But Contador is Cycling's One True Champion :lol:
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