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The Froome Files, test data only thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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02 Dec 2015 14:54

Every journal has a section where conflicts of interest are declared. That is SOP. But perceived conflicts of interest are beyond the scope of publishing. Or, in other words, all scientists have perceived conflicts of interest. It is unavoidable.
djpbaltimore
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Re:

02 Dec 2015 14:55

djpbaltimore wrote:I can obtain my college transcript from the registrar's office, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what my grades were. I think the passage refers more towards intellectual property than your interpretation. It could've involved a MTA (material transfer agreement) with the UCI center.


indeed...however for the average reader any nuance along these lines would not neccessarily be 'infered' (to use the term of the day)...this leaves the use of the word open to the interpretation that...he has only just obtained it. i.e. such that he needed to go through a formal process such as FOI to get it....

Again...this is not my interpretation...it is how it could be interpreted

Anyone with military knowledge (or an inquiring mind) might have been able to see through the 45 min claim by Bliar...however that didn't stop the 'inference' of some media reports that more than a Cypriot military base was at risk
gillan1969
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Re:

02 Dec 2015 14:56

djpbaltimore wrote:I can obtain my college transcript from the registrar's office, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what my grades were. I think the passage refers more towards intellectual property than your interpretation. It could've involved a MTA (material transfer agreement) with the UCI center.


In the academic context the results need to be sent from the university in a sealed envelope to the employer or next intuition. You wouldn't see them. The results are the property of the university not the individual.

Per the testing, more often than not the testing center has provided its own funding for the tests so they will own the results and release them under payment or a larger anonymous study into the subjects.
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 15:08

gillan1969 wrote:for the average reader any nuance along these lines would not neccessarily be 'infered' (to use the term of the day)...this leaves the use of the word open to the interpretation that...he has only just obtained it. i.e. such that he needed to go through a formal process such as FOI to get it....


Waffle on like this long enough and even you will have forgotten what it was you originally said. So an aide-memoire for the average readers out there:

gillan1969 wrote:it infers that he did not have sight of the (2007) test results until after he did the recent tests


One more time: it does no such thing.
User avatar fmk_RoI
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 15:15

fmk_RoI wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:for the average reader any nuance along these lines would not neccessarily be 'infered' (to use the term of the day)...this leaves the use of the word open to the interpretation that...he has only just obtained it. i.e. such that he needed to go through a formal process such as FOI to get it....


Waffle on like this long enough and even you will have forgotten what it was you originally said. So an aide-memoire for the average readers out there:

gillan1969 wrote:it infers that he did not have sight of the (2007) test results until after he did the recent tests


One more time: it does no such thing.


...so "since when" did he have sight of them?
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 15:17

thehog wrote:
In the academic context the results need to be sent from the university in a sealed envelope to the employer or next intuition. You wouldn't see them. The results are the property of the university not the individual.

Per the testing, more often than not the testing center has provided its own funding for the tests so they will own the results and release them under payment or a larger anonymous study into the subjects.


The bold is incorrect, anybody can obtain their transcripts in the USA. I have done so in the past year. Most employers in my field of academia prefer unofficial copies for application packets. Official ones only at the time of hire.

As for Froome, you are correct that his test results are not his intellectual property. Getting the 2007 data in the paper requires some type of agreement between the UCI center, Froome, the authors writing the paper, and their institutions.
djpbaltimore
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Re:

02 Dec 2015 15:39

Merckx index wrote:
The tests were carried out at the GlaxoSmithKline Human Performance Lab in London in August, since when the Kenyan-born cyclist is understood to have obtained the results of tests carried out when he first joined the UCI’s World Cycling Centre as a young rider out of Africa in 2007.


Can someone translate this into English?


The wording is unclear and can be read more than one way. To me it either means that he got his 2007 results in August and afterwards did his fresh tests with GSK the same month (ie he waited for the 2007 results and immediately did the tests) or he did his GSK tests in August and got his 2007 UCI results after he did the GSK tests. It depends what way you read 'since when' - does it mean 'since August' or 'since he did the tests'.
bewildered
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 15:40

djpbaltimore wrote:
thehog wrote:
In the academic context the results need to be sent from the university in a sealed envelope to the employer or next intuition. You wouldn't see them. The results are the property of the university not the individual.

Per the testing, more often than not the testing center has provided its own funding for the tests so they will own the results and release them under payment or a larger anonymous study into the subjects.


The bold is incorrect, anybody can obtain their transcripts in the USA. I have done so in the past year. Most employers in my field of academia prefer unofficial copies for application packets. Official ones only at the time of hire.

As for Froome, you are correct that his test results are not his intellectual property. Getting the 2007 data in the paper requires some type of agreement between the UCI center, Froome, the authors writing the paper, and their institutions.


Of course you can obtain your transcripts (and you pay for the copy) but a new employer or post graduate course will only accept an "official transcript" from the university itself in a sealed envelope with a stamp across the break.

Unofficial transcript upon application or from WES for overseas applications.


The results still remain the property of the institution not the individual.
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 16:15

bewildered wrote:The wording is unclear and can be read more than one way. To me it either means that he got his 2007 results in August


For reals? bewildered by name, bewildering by nature.
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 16:18

gillan1969 wrote:...so "since when" did he have sight of them?


You're the one trying to suggest he's never seen them, reading into thing things that are not there. How 'bout you do the heavy lifting here and provide the proof? Oh! that's right, you can't prove a negative, so it must be true.
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 16:32

fmk_RoI wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:...so "since when" did he have sight of them?


You're the one trying to suggest he's never seen them, reading into thing things that are not there. How 'bout you do the heavy lifting here and provide the proof? Oh! that's right, you can't prove a negative, so it must be true.


i think we may be at cross purposes..of course he has seen them....he has very specifically seen them...those around him have very specifically seen them and wondered how they square the circle, or in Sir Dave's own words make the unbelievable believable.

However, if you had never happened upon froome (or cycling - it is a newspaper article) and read that article you could be forgiven for thinking he had not seen them up until he obtained them sometime in the very recent past..

And yes it may be more cock-up than conspiracy (and hence I may be reading things into it) however setting the ground work for a news release is common practice and so we get this as part of a managed package which sits alongside Moore's piece......
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 16:40

gillan1969 wrote:if you had never happened upon froome (or cycling - it is a newspaper article) and read that article you could be forgiven for thinking he had not seen them up until he obtained them sometime in the very recent past..


Only if you had performed a prefrontal lobotomy on yourself with a blunt pencil before reading the article.
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 16:43

fmk_RoI wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:if you had never happened upon froome (or cycling - it is a newspaper article) and read that article you could be forgiven for thinking he had not seen them up until he obtained them sometime in the very recent past..


Only if you had performed a prefrontal lobotomy on yourself with a blunt pencil before reading the article.


this is a Telegraph article you realise... :)
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 16:46

gillan1969 wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:if you had never happened upon froome (or cycling - it is a newspaper article) and read that article you could be forgiven for thinking he had not seen them up until he obtained them sometime in the very recent past..


Only if you had performed a prefrontal lobotomy on yourself with a blunt pencil before reading the article.


this is a Telegraph article you realise... :)


Two pages on Froome and no data has been released as yet! :o
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 16:53

thehog wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:if you had never happened upon froome (or cycling - it is a newspaper article) and read that article you could be forgiven for thinking he had not seen them up until he obtained them sometime in the very recent past..


Only if you had performed a prefrontal lobotomy on yourself with a blunt pencil before reading the article.


this is a Telegraph article you realise... :)


Two pages on Froome and no data has been released as yet! :o


well Sir Dave's not seen it and yet he gets an article out of it :-)
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

02 Dec 2015 16:58

thehog wrote:Two pages on Froome and no data has been released as yet! :o


Just wait 'til the article does arrives....

- Moore's misuse of an an unpaired comma on the second line of the fourth paragraph proves he is on Sky's payroll and cannot be trusted to offer independent analysis of the test results.
- Well, actually, you know, the concept of paired commas is just a convention, not a rule.
- No it isn't.
- Yes it is.
- No it isn't.
- Yes it is.
- No it isn't.
- Yes it is.
- Maybe it is. But it still proves that Moore is in league with Murdoch. He knows Brian Smith.
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02 Dec 2015 17:00

Who remembers when Joe Lindsey was given access to Wiggins's Garmin blood values? (((nostalgia)))
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reply

02 Dec 2015 18:20

fmk_RoI wrote:
thehog wrote:Two pages on Froome and no data has been released as yet! :o


Just wait 'til the article does arrives....



............my post is written ready.........of course i'm unbiased.............

it's just a reaction to facts that produces such indignation.................

Mark L
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02 Dec 2015 18:37

So they're releasing the news/data on a Friday, huh? Must be good.

John Swanson
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02 Dec 2015 19:03

And I was going to stay up til midnight tonight.
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