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Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

15 Nov 2017 04:43

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:Gaimon kept himself out of legal trouble by qualifying that one sentence, "probably did have a motor" such that it's a statement of opinion - that a "well-documented rumor" is in his opinion more probable to be true than false.
So no basis for legal action there. Bad idea on the part of Luigi's manager to go after Gaimon, just calls more attention to the subject


Seems that these days 'you can say whatever you like' and get away from it - Gaimon is representative of the weakness in society.
yaco
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 10:27

yaco wrote:
ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:Gaimon kept himself out of legal trouble by qualifying that one sentence, "probably did have a motor" such that it's a statement of opinion - that a "well-documented rumor" is in his opinion more probable to be true than false.
So no basis for legal action there. Bad idea on the part of Luigi's manager to go after Gaimon, just calls more attention to the subject


Seems that these days 'you can say whatever you like' and get away from it - Gaimon is representative of the weakness in society.

Yes. To keep society strong, we must suppress thoughts and speech that make us uncomfortable. We will be told what the truth is, so there is no need for debate.

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
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15 Nov 2017 10:39

I think the issue for Cancellara is, like Armstrong doping....that someone or more like a group of people know about the what happened. The pedalling style, the way he drops Boonen, his hand movements on the bars etc all point to there being a motor in that seat tube.

Landis, Hamilton, then eventually the whole Postal squad told us what happened with Armstrong, the people surrounding Cancellara will do the same.

It's only a matter of time
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 10:58

ScienceIsCool wrote:
yaco wrote:
ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:Gaimon kept himself out of legal trouble by qualifying that one sentence, "probably did have a motor" such that it's a statement of opinion - that a "well-documented rumor" is in his opinion more probable to be true than false.
So no basis for legal action there. Bad idea on the part of Luigi's manager to go after Gaimon, just calls more attention to the subject


Seems that these days 'you can say whatever you like' and get away from it - Gaimon is representative of the weakness in society.

Yes. To keep society strong, we must suppress thoughts and speech that make us uncomfortable. We will be told what the truth is, so there is no need for debate.

John Swanson


Pity that Gaimon was riding for a CT in 2010.

At least if he rode the 2010 Flanders, and preferably been in the lead group when Cancellara skipped away, then his comments may have some validity - It's pure scuttlebutt from Gaimon and I hope Cancellara's team goes hard at Gaimon.
yaco
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 11:39

yaco wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
yaco wrote:
ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:Gaimon kept himself out of legal trouble by qualifying that one sentence, "probably did have a motor" such that it's a statement of opinion - that a "well-documented rumor" is in his opinion more probable to be true than false.
So no basis for legal action there. Bad idea on the part of Luigi's manager to go after Gaimon, just calls more attention to the subject


Seems that these days 'you can say whatever you like' and get away from it - Gaimon is representative of the weakness in society.

Yes. To keep society strong, we must suppress thoughts and speech that make us uncomfortable. We will be told what the truth is, so there is no need for debate.

John Swanson


Pity that Gaimon was riding for a CT in 2010.

At least if he rode the 2010 Flanders, and preferably been in the lead group when Cancellara skipped away, then his comments may have some validity - It's pure scuttlebutt from Gaimon and I hope Cancellara's team goes hard at Gaimon.


So forums such as this are full of people (a good percentage of whom i'm guessing have never ridden in the pro ranks) who believe with absolute certainty, and are not shy of saying so in black and white, that Cancellara and others have used motors.

But along comes an ex pro, admittedly not one of the best but good enough to make it to WT level, and opinions he expresses are pure scuttlebut. Yeah, what would he know about riding a bike eh :rolleyes:
brownbobby
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Re:

15 Nov 2017 11:48

ad9898 wrote:I think the issue for Cancellara is, like Armstrong doping....that someone or more like a group of people know about the what happened. The pedalling style, the way he drops Boonen, his hand movements on the bars etc all point to there being a motor in that seat tube.

Landis, Hamilton, then eventually the whole Postal squad told us what happened with Armstrong, the people surrounding Cancellara will do the same.

It's only a matter of time


there is no LAndis or Betsy around Cancellara. who has something to gain from speaking. CAncellara didnt piss off or bully as many people as LAnce
pastronef
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 11:58

pastronef wrote:
ad9898 wrote:I think the issue for Cancellara is, like Armstrong doping....that someone or more like a group of people know about the what happened. The pedalling style, the way he drops Boonen, his hand movements on the bars etc all point to there being a motor in that seat tube.

Landis, Hamilton, then eventually the whole Postal squad told us what happened with Armstrong, the people surrounding Cancellara will do the same.

It's only a matter of time


there is no LAndis or Betsy around Cancellara. who has something to gain from speaking. CAncellara didnt piss off or bully as many people as LAnce


Never underestimate what some people will do for money....and if this goes legal there may well be money involved.

This is why, despite the initial noise and outrage from Cancellara, i'm very doubtful that he'll be wanting this to go legal, even if there was grounds for such a case.

Unless of course he's 100% innocent
brownbobby
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 13:24

yaco wrote:
ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:Gaimon kept himself out of legal trouble by qualifying that one sentence, "probably did have a motor" such that it's a statement of opinion - that a "well-documented rumor" is in his opinion more probable to be true than false.
So no basis for legal action there. Bad idea on the part of Luigi's manager to go after Gaimon, just calls more attention to the subject


Seems that these days 'you can say whatever you like' and get away from it - Gaimon is representative of the weakness in society.


That would certainly apply to much of the dreck posted in the Clinic...
Bolder
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15 Nov 2017 13:28

Seriously, though, I wonder if Gaimon had has book lawyered first. Libel and defamation of character laws differ between countries. I probably would not be repeating rumors and speculation without even a little bit of evidence beyond "it looked like..." Not b/c I do or don't believe Canc was using a motor but because I'd like to hold people to the same standard of proof as I would expect for myself. If Gaimon couldn't think of anything more interesting to write then maybe he shouldn't have written the book in the first place.
Bolder
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Re:

15 Nov 2017 13:36

Bolder wrote:Seriously, though, I wonder if Gaimon had has book lawyered first. Libel and defamation of character laws differ between countries. I probably would not be repeating rumors and speculation without even a little bit of evidence beyond "it looked like..." Not b/c I do or don't believe Canc was using a motor but because I'd like to hold people to the same standard of proof as I would expect for myself. If Gaimon couldn't think of anything more interesting to write then maybe he shouldn't have written the book in the first place.


Perhaps not Gaimon, but i'd be very surprised if the publishers didn't check such issues out before going to print.
brownbobby
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Re:

15 Nov 2017 13:47

Bolder wrote:Seriously, though, I wonder if Gaimon had has book lawyered first. Libel and defamation of character laws differ between countries. I probably would not be repeating rumors and speculation without even a little bit of evidence beyond "it looked like..." Not b/c I do or don't believe Canc was using a motor but because I'd like to hold people to the same standard of proof as I would expect for myself. If Gaimon couldn't think of anything more interesting to write then maybe he shouldn't have written the book in the first place.


Did Gaimon have the book lawyered? you really think someone will publish a book without it being read by lawyers!!!

That motors are being discussed by ex pros is imo a nail on the head they are in use. Gaimon is late to the motor doping party, but he has a book to sell and motors are the biggest story out there to sell his book with. Chaching! Gaimon may have a soap tattoo, but that is all it is, a tattoo.
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 14:20

brownbobby wrote:
yaco wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
yaco wrote:
ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:Gaimon kept himself out of legal trouble by qualifying that one sentence, "probably did have a motor" such that it's a statement of opinion - that a "well-documented rumor" is in his opinion more probable to be true than false.
So no basis for legal action there. Bad idea on the part of Luigi's manager to go after Gaimon, just calls more attention to the subject


Seems that these days 'you can say whatever you like' and get away from it - Gaimon is representative of the weakness in society.

Yes. To keep society strong, we must suppress thoughts and speech that make us uncomfortable. We will be told what the truth is, so there is no need for debate.

John Swanson


Pity that Gaimon was riding for a CT in 2010.

At least if he rode the 2010 Flanders, and preferably been in the lead group when Cancellara skipped away, then his comments may have some validity - It's pure scuttlebutt from Gaimon and I hope Cancellara's team goes hard at Gaimon.


So forums such as this are full of people (a good percentage of whom i'm guessing have never ridden in the pro ranks) who believe with absolute certainty, and are not shy of saying so in black and white, that Cancellara and others have used motors.

But along comes an ex pro, admittedly not one of the best but good enough to make it to WT level, and opinions he expresses are pure scuttlebut. Yeah, what would he know about riding a bike eh :rolleyes:


Pity the pro only rode at WT level for three years from 2014 to 2016, while he spent 2009 to 2014 at CT level - Yeah, Gaimon was in and about racing against Cancellara on a regular basis - Give me a rider who regularly raced against Cancellara, especially in the pointy end of races to claim Cancellara used a motor and it will make me stand up and take notice.
yaco
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 14:26

Benotti69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Seriously, though, I wonder if Gaimon had has book lawyered first. Libel and defamation of character laws differ between countries. I probably would not be repeating rumors and speculation without even a little bit of evidence beyond "it looked like..." Not b/c I do or don't believe Canc was using a motor but because I'd like to hold people to the same standard of proof as I would expect for myself. If Gaimon couldn't think of anything more interesting to write then maybe he shouldn't have written the book in the first place.


Did Gaimon have the book lawyered? you really think someone will publish a book without it being read by lawyers!!!

That motors are being discussed by ex pros is imo a nail on the head they are in use. Gaimon is late to the motor doping party, but he has a book to sell and motors are the biggest story out there to sell his book with. Chaching! Gaimon may have a soap tattoo, but that is all it is, a tattoo.


I can understand the motivations behind selling a book - If you must say what you want - But the fact is Gaimon was riding for an American CT team in 2010, and in three years at WT level, he rode one monument Paris Roubaix - You must realise the non-cycling junkies will think Gaimon has credibility, yet he was a bit-part player with limited exposure to Cancellara.
Last edited by yaco on 15 Nov 2017 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
yaco
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 15:12

brownbobby wrote:
yaco wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
yaco wrote:
ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:Gaimon kept himself out of legal trouble by qualifying that one sentence, "probably did have a motor" such that it's a statement of opinion - that a "well-documented rumor" is in his opinion more probable to be true than false.
So no basis for legal action there. Bad idea on the part of Luigi's manager to go after Gaimon, just calls more attention to the subject


Seems that these days 'you can say whatever you like' and get away from it - Gaimon is representative of the weakness in society.

Yes. To keep society strong, we must suppress thoughts and speech that make us uncomfortable. We will be told what the truth is, so there is no need for debate.

John Swanson


Pity that Gaimon was riding for a CT in 2010.

At least if he rode the 2010 Flanders, and preferably been in the lead group when Cancellara skipped away, then his comments may have some validity - It's pure scuttlebutt from Gaimon and I hope Cancellara's team goes hard at Gaimon.


So forums such as this are full of people (a good percentage of whom i'm guessing have never ridden in the pro ranks) who believe with absolute certainty, and are not shy of saying so in black and white, that Cancellara and others have used motors.

But along comes an ex pro, admittedly not one of the best but good enough to make it to WT level, and opinions he expresses are pure scuttlebut. Yeah, what would he know about riding a bike eh :rolleyes:


An ex-pro has a book to sell, that's why he mentioned the whole stuff.
An ex-pro should know better than us in this forum, he shouldn't believe or guess like us (which we are perfectly entitled to in this sub-forum), at least not publicly. If he heard or know something (because he obviously wasn't there when things happen'), he should've reveal his sources. This way he either tries to sell his book or just playing a smart-ass, or both.

And to conclude, I'm sick and tired of this clown who expresses his own personal views and thoughts and presents them like some kind of facts. He just "knows" things, without any single piece of evidence! He knows that Cancellara used a motor. He knows that Tom Danielson didn't dope :lol: .He knows that Tom Zirbel didn't dope. He knows that Contador doped and is very bad role model for young Spanish cyclists, and in fact when they do dope that's because of Contador :eek: . He knows that Paco Mancebo is a disgrace for cycling, and that he shouldn't ever ride a bike anymore although he was never convicted of doping, unlike some of his close friends :rolleyes: He just reminds me so much of that piece of **** David Walsh!
Last edited by Blanco on 15 Nov 2017 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 15:26

yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Seriously, though, I wonder if Gaimon had has book lawyered first. Libel and defamation of character laws differ between countries. I probably would not be repeating rumors and speculation without even a little bit of evidence beyond "it looked like..." Not b/c I do or don't believe Canc was using a motor but because I'd like to hold people to the same standard of proof as I would expect for myself. If Gaimon couldn't think of anything more interesting to write then maybe he shouldn't have written the book in the first place.


Did Gaimon have the book lawyered? you really think someone will publish a book without it being read by lawyers!!!

That motors are being discussed by ex pros is imo a nail on the head they are in use. Gaimon is late to the motor doping party, but he has a book to sell and motors are the biggest story out there to sell his book with. Chaching! Gaimon may have a soap tattoo, but that is all it is, a tattoo.


I can understand the motivations behind selling a book - If you must say what you want - But the fact is Gaimon was riding for an American CT team in 2014, and in three years at WT level, he rode one monument Paris Roubaix - You must realise the non-cycling junkies will think Gaimon has credibility, yet he was a bit-part player with limited exposure to Cancellara.


You are so clued in to pro cycling aren't you :lol: Cassani demonstrated a 'motor bike' at Il Giro years ago. Plenty of others have talked about motors. As i said Gaimon late to the party as he needed something to get his book into press and social media.
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 18:54

Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Seriously, though, I wonder if Gaimon had has book lawyered first. Libel and defamation of character laws differ between countries. I probably would not be repeating rumors and speculation without even a little bit of evidence beyond "it looked like..." Not b/c I do or don't believe Canc was using a motor but because I'd like to hold people to the same standard of proof as I would expect for myself. If Gaimon couldn't think of anything more interesting to write then maybe he shouldn't have written the book in the first place.


Did Gaimon have the book lawyered? you really think someone will publish a book without it being read by lawyers!!!

That motors are being discussed by ex pros is imo a nail on the head they are in use. Gaimon is late to the motor doping party, but he has a book to sell and motors are the biggest story out there to sell his book with. Chaching! Gaimon may have a soap tattoo, but that is all it is, a tattoo.


I can understand the motivations behind selling a book - If you must say what you want - But the fact is Gaimon was riding for an American CT team in 2014, and in three years at WT level, he rode one monument Paris Roubaix - You must realise the non-cycling junkies will think Gaimon has credibility, yet he was a bit-part player with limited exposure to Cancellara.


You are so clued in to pro cycling aren't you :lol: Cassani demonstrated a 'motor bike' at Il Giro years ago. Plenty of others have talked about motors. As i said Gaimon late to the party as he needed something to get his book into press and social media.


All Gaimon has done is look at a you tube video ( like us ) and declared Cancellara used a motor in the 2010 Flanders - The sad thing is the non-cycling or casual cycling fans have no idea of his cycling and mistakenly think he has credibility.
yaco
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Re:

15 Nov 2017 19:51

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:Gaimon kept himself out of legal trouble by qualifying that one sentence, "probably did have a motor" such that it's a statement of opinion - that a "well-documented rumor" is in his opinion more probable to be true than false.
So no basis for legal action there. Bad idea on the part of Luigi's manager to go after Gaimon, just calls more attention to the subject

This ^
jmdirt
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:14

yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Seriously, though, I wonder if Gaimon had has book lawyered first. Libel and defamation of character laws differ between countries. I probably would not be repeating rumors and speculation without even a little bit of evidence beyond "it looked like..." Not b/c I do or don't believe Canc was using a motor but because I'd like to hold people to the same standard of proof as I would expect for myself. If Gaimon couldn't think of anything more interesting to write then maybe he shouldn't have written the book in the first place.


Did Gaimon have the book lawyered? you really think someone will publish a book without it being read by lawyers!!!

That motors are being discussed by ex pros is imo a nail on the head they are in use. Gaimon is late to the motor doping party, but he has a book to sell and motors are the biggest story out there to sell his book with. Chaching! Gaimon may have a soap tattoo, but that is all it is, a tattoo.


I can understand the motivations behind selling a book - If you must say what you want - But the fact is Gaimon was riding for an American CT team in 2014, and in three years at WT level, he rode one monument Paris Roubaix - You must realise the non-cycling junkies will think Gaimon has credibility, yet he was a bit-part player with limited exposure to Cancellara.


You are so clued in to pro cycling aren't you :lol: Cassani demonstrated a 'motor bike' at Il Giro years ago. Plenty of others have talked about motors. As i said Gaimon late to the party as he needed something to get his book into press and social media.


All Gaimon has done is look at a you tube video ( like us ) and declared Cancellara used a motor in the 2010 Flanders - The sad thing is the non-cycling or casual cycling fans have no idea of his cycling and mistakenly think he has credibility.

You certain that's all he has done. You don't think he might talk to other pro cyclists. You don't maybe harbour a doubt that he may in fact have voiced what others in the pro ranks believe just don't want to say. You think maybe he might have discussed Cancellara over a coffee with even one other rider.....
Anyone who believes he used a motor has that from the video evidence apart from possibly Leukemans who had a birds eye view and maybe Boonen....who borrowed his party trick later for a win of his own from 50k out.
Not sure we will ever get to the bottom of his cheating but we can be sure its happened.
noddy69
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 09:21

yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
Bolder wrote:Seriously, though, I wonder if Gaimon had has book lawyered first. Libel and defamation of character laws differ between countries. I probably would not be repeating rumors and speculation without even a little bit of evidence beyond "it looked like..." Not b/c I do or don't believe Canc was using a motor but because I'd like to hold people to the same standard of proof as I would expect for myself. If Gaimon couldn't think of anything more interesting to write then maybe he shouldn't have written the book in the first place.


Did Gaimon have the book lawyered? you really think someone will publish a book without it being read by lawyers!!!

That motors are being discussed by ex pros is imo a nail on the head they are in use. Gaimon is late to the motor doping party, but he has a book to sell and motors are the biggest story out there to sell his book with. Chaching! Gaimon may have a soap tattoo, but that is all it is, a tattoo.


I can understand the motivations behind selling a book - If you must say what you want - But the fact is Gaimon was riding for an American CT team in 2014, and in three years at WT level, he rode one monument Paris Roubaix - You must realise the non-cycling junkies will think Gaimon has credibility, yet he was a bit-part player with limited exposure to Cancellara.


You are so clued in to pro cycling aren't you :lol: Cassani demonstrated a 'motor bike' at Il Giro years ago. Plenty of others have talked about motors. As i said Gaimon late to the party as he needed something to get his book into press and social media.


All Gaimon has done is look at a you tube video ( like us ) and declared Cancellara used a motor in the 2010 Flanders - The sad thing is the non-cycling or casual cycling fans have no idea of his cycling and mistakenly think he has credibility.


Gaimon has credibility, maybe he wasn't a huge star but he certainly learned how the system worked and because he's stayed close to pros he probably has decent contacts in the peloton. I just think the standard of proof before going public in a book should be higher. That's all
Bolder
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Yesterday 16:34

At the end of the day, Gaimon was a WT rider in 2014 and 2016. He rode against Cancellara on one race day, that being the 2014 PR - So he has little or no real experience against Cancellara to give an informed opinion about moto doping - Let's hope he isn't sued..
yaco
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