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Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

31 Jan 2018 13:22

glassmoon wrote:V - still same attention wh0re.
Get the LA and motodoping into one sentence and media are all over you. He just loves it.


I'm a little cautious about believing what I read. Unless you hear an audio recording of the interview you never quite know how the supposed quotes arose. Journalists rarely arrive without an agenda...
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re: Re:

31 Jan 2018 22:54

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:I could see him buying the rights from Varjas for $2 million even if he never used it. Just to keep it away from his competitors. It just makes sense. If Varjas started shopping it around, an actually bright engineer would learn of the idea and run with it.
John Swanson

If a USB flash drive has a volume about 5 cubic centimeters, and the USB-sized Varjas device can generate 140 watts for 5 minutes, that's a power density of 28 W/cm3, and energy density of 2.33 Wh/cm3
What type of device might that be, within those constraints of volume and energy?

A bomb...
The best Li Ion cells are capable of 0.6 Wh/ml.

I was thinking it would have to be some kind of advanced battery, since it cannot be that the motor itself is supposed to be the size of a USB drive. But that's how the description reads, the whole motor. And in that case, we would probably have to think along the lines of combustion or radioactivity... or ... ???

Unless of course you're talking about a motor which consumes that much energy.

fournir 140 watts = to provide the power. So it means the generated power, not the consumption

Anyways, I super doubt you could get 140 Watts output from that small of a motor unless it was stupid high rpm and that didn't include the casing. Even then, cooling would be a problem
John Swanson

It was just a rhetorical question or small thought-experiment on the improbability of the Varjas device as described. If it is real, then for sure it would be worth a lot more than $2 million to all kinds of industrialists, miiltary, etc. Then the whole espionage and death-threat scenarios from the book make sense as well

Oh, look, Lance was hiding the Varjas motor in plain sight !
Image
That's brilliant - let's not let it fall into the wrong hands


The issue isn't the watts. 150W electric motors the size of your thumb can be found for less than $10. The issue is always going to be that power in order to use it in a bike depends on its Torque multiplied by Speed and the direction of travel works against you.
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Re: Re:

31 Jan 2018 23:48

samhocking wrote:The issue isn't the watts. 150W electric motors the size of your thumb can be found for less than $10. The issue is always going to be that power in order to use it in a bike depends on its Torque multiplied by Speed and the direction of travel works against you.

Watts are Watts - measure of work in Joules/second. For rotations, it can be expressed as torque x w, where w is radians per second and the "x" is a cross product since w is a vector. The only problem is that the motors you describe run at a Brazillion rpm and no torque. To get anything useful, you have to translate that work into a reasonable torque and rpm. That means gearing and lots of. Which will have enormous friction losses and be huge.

Those motors are perfect for quad-copter RCs where the torque profile matches the requirements. For a bike... Nope. You want high torque at low rpm, and there are a few design choices, but they aren't as small.

John Swanson
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01 Feb 2018 10:24

That was exactly my point, that you can very easily get very small very high watt motors, but without any way to get that into a bike as useable watts is impossible in the space he's claiming is possible.

My RC plane has a 1200w motor no bigger than my computer mouse and lasts 15-20 minutes, but it would be totally useless in a bike without a huge gearbox to get that torque in a useable way. It simply can't fit into a USB thumb drive or even a bikes hub or seat tube with existing technology without a huge gearbox or bigger more powerful magnets and stators. In a bike it would have to be easily 5 times bigger and heavier to gain the required low RPM torque at 150w for 15 minutes use. This is the problem with Varjas's claims. Nothing he says in theory, exist in the real world either from him or any technology manufacturer. Even aerospace don't have motors like he describes.
As far as I can tell, he took pretty standard motors that would fit in a seatube and some backstreet engineering to hook it up to the bottom bracket. Easily possible in Armstrongs time though. Worth $2million? I'd say it was $2million to stop him selling to others rather than actually worth $2million as it's not an invention of anything, simply applying what already exists off-the-shelf inside a bike frame from what i've seen of his work so far.
Last edited by samhocking on 01 Feb 2018 10:45, edited 1 time in total.
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01 Feb 2018 10:43

Why do you need such high torque when the rider is pressing the peddles too?
The motor assists the peddler - doesn't replace him.
It's an add on to gain extra watts.
Last edited by TourOfSardinia on 01 Feb 2018 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
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01 Feb 2018 10:48

Because a bike and riders legs are very low rpm machines. A small powerful motor is typically a high rpm machine. So you either have to make the motor much bigger to get usable torque or use a gearbox. Either way, the size is increasing and the limiting factor is magnet technology too.

Look at Vargas's hub motor for instance. That was about 8" in diameter like an oversize SON Dynamo hub.
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01 Feb 2018 14:23

Maybe, better to build an inside "motor" as aid in the seat tube, on the axis magnet, and coil winding as stator, so its speed rotation is directly linked to the rider and electronic let pass ectricity when winding can attract magnet.
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03 Feb 2018 11:22

The Bassons car chase French amateur:

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/02/french-amateur-given-five-year-suspension-hidden-motor-use/

Cyril Fontaine has been handed a five year ban from the sport.
According to Le Figaro, the 43 year old was notified of the sanction in mid-January
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03 Feb 2018 14:50

OMG
ClassicomanoLuigi
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04 Feb 2018 02:51

https://www.facebook.com/likecyclingtoday/videos/1199850683483292/

It’s grainy footage but looks like a bog standard Super Six with Mavic wheels...
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Re:

04 Feb 2018 03:22

42x16ss wrote:https://www.facebook.com/likecyclingtoday/videos/1199850683483292/
It’s grainy footage but looks like a bog standard Super Six with Mavic wheels...

The wheels are Mavic, but the fork and the frame don't look like standard Cannondale
But, the point, of course, is that it might as well be one of many well-known standard carbon frames
It proves the frame doesn't need to have a wide seat tube to conceal a motor. I am wondering if both the motor and the batteries are in the down tube, or if batteries in the seat tube
This is kind of sad. There was an interview with Wiggins in which he said he believes bikes with motors have been used at the pro level, about five years ago, but he thinks it's not a problem anymore. And that he understands the motive is similar to chemical doping, of one's own body, but still, 'motor-doping' is kind of absurd, because it defeats the purpose of cycling. Voeckler said something similar.
In the Bassons video, it says he chased after a mid-level amateur in his car, and they found the motor when they confiscated the guy's bike. At the amateur level, what is the motive for this? Because there is no money or fame or anything to be gained
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04 Feb 2018 23:28

http://uci.ch/pressreleases/the-uci-management-committee-sets-out-its-initial-plans-for-208-2022/

With regards to the fight against technological fraud, the UCI Management Committee has approved the proposals explored over the past few weeks that aim to strengthen the effectiveness of race checks. A detailed plan of action will be unveiled at a press conference on 21st March.

The decision to integrate e-mountain bike into the UCI has also been approved by the Management Committee, in response to growing public interest in this new form of cycling. Discussions will be held over the coming year with National Federations and representatives of the cycling industry, with a view to creating an initial set of regulations for this discipline from 2019. However, it is already the intention that electric starting systems will only be triggered once leg movement has begun, and will cut out when leg movement stops. This electric assistance must also cease when the bike reaches 25 km/h, and the engine must not exceed 250 watts.
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Re: Re:

05 Feb 2018 11:24

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:
42x16ss wrote:https://www.facebook.com/likecyclingtoday/videos/1199850683483292/
It’s grainy footage but looks like a bog standard Super Six with Mavic wheels...

The wheels are Mavic, but the fork and the frame don't look like standard Cannondale
But, the point, of course, is that it might as well be one of many well-known standard carbon frames
It proves the frame doesn't need to have a wide seat tube to conceal a motor. I am wondering if both the motor and the batteries are in the down tube, or if batteries in the seat tube
This is kind of sad. There was an interview with Wiggins in which he said he believes bikes with motors have been used at the pro level, about five years ago, but he thinks it's not a problem anymore. And that he understands the motive is similar to chemical doping, of one's own body, but still, 'motor-doping' is kind of absurd, because it defeats the purpose of cycling. Voeckler said something similar.
In the Bassons video, it says he chased after a mid-level amateur in his car, and they found the motor when they confiscated the guy's bike. At the amateur level, what is the motive for this? Because there is no money or fame or anything to be gained


I think you underestimate just how important Strava Kudos and KOM's are to some people :D
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05 Feb 2018 13:30

Yep. I have friends that chase Strava segments and will cheat to beat them. Just ridiculous. I don't think they can really enjoy their time on a bike.
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Re: Re:

05 Feb 2018 19:10

brownbobby wrote:I think you underestimate just how important Strava Kudos and KOM's are to some people :D

My thinking about amateur categorized racing is: the likelihood in any given race that I'm going to be on the podium is minimal - there have been situations where I am theoretically in contention for the outright win, but not really, because outmatched by the real sprinters among the survivors in the final group. And after that point, it doesn't matter much, just some respectable placement above middle-of-the pack, which shows I rode well tactically

With the Strava, at least that sort of makes sense, because these 'motor-dopers' can use their motors secretly, without being confronted by anyone, and without really belonging to any particular cycling community or team.
Internet ego ?
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Re: Motor doping thread

03 Mar 2018 10:42

www.twitter.com/MRasmussen1974

I am sure @lancearmstrong was on lost of things in 1999 but a motor was not one of them. High octane fuel yes - fantastic biologic engine yes -mechanical doping no Way. Just my five cents
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Re: Motor doping thread

03 Mar 2018 17:34

pastronef wrote:http://www.twitter.com/MRasmussen1974

I am sure @lancearmstrong was on lost of things in 1999 but a motor was not one of them. High octane fuel yes - fantastic biologic engine yes -mechanical doping no Way. Just my five cents


Great, that is that one laid to rest then. Them pesky conspiracy theorists; they need to be told.




Tell me again how the omerta works ?
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Re: Motor doping thread

04 Mar 2018 09:58

Freddythefrog wrote:
pastronef wrote:http://www.twitter.com/MRasmussen1974

I am sure @lancearmstrong was on lost of things in 1999 but a motor was not one of them. High octane fuel yes - fantastic biologic engine yes -mechanical doping no Way. Just my five cents


Great, that is that one laid to rest then. Them pesky conspiracy theorists; they need to be told.




Tell me again how the omerta works ?


omertá?

so he got sent home from a Tour win, lost money, got sacked, lost his career, was blacklisted by Uci and teams, confessed his 12 year doping and accused his team, got De Rooij and other sacked, considered suicide, but he kept his secret on motors instead of crashing it all down?
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04 Mar 2018 14:30

...imagine? if lance not only required a boat load of PEDS but a motor too ............and still appeared totally

knackered at the top of climbs then he must have managed to have been an even poorer cyclist than myself....................................

Mark L
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Re:

04 Mar 2018 18:10

ebandit wrote:...imagine? if lance not only required a boat load of PEDS but a motor too ............and still appeared totally

knackered at the top of climbs then he must have managed to have been an even poorer cyclist than myself....................................

Mark L

But faced with say Pantani
a motor could have made the difference
;)
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