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Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

09 Apr 2018 00:23

om/viewtopic.php?p=2244407#p2244407]fmk_RoI wrote: Nowhere does he say he has doubts. He acknowledges that other people have doubts: one more time for you, that's just a statement of the bleeding obvious, as anyone who reads any cycling media would have to admit.


Do you speak french? Here's the verbatim quote from the article:
"Cancellara m’a-t-il volé le Ronde 2010 grâce à un moteur ? Ai-je un doute ? Oui… mais ce n’est pas à moi de le dire. C’est très difficile à prouver parce qu’on n’a plus le vélo pour vérifier…"
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Re: Motor doping thread

09 Apr 2018 01:51

So Netserk was right...overrated.

Tough to prove, but when a competitor calls you out...it's serious.
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Re: Re:

09 Apr 2018 02:33

delgado wrote:
om/viewtopic.php?p=2244407#p2244407]fmk_RoI wrote: Nowhere does he say he has doubts. He acknowledges that other people have doubts: one more time for you, that's just a statement of the bleeding obvious, as anyone who reads any cycling media would have to admit.
Do you speak french? Here's the verbatim quote from the article: "Cancellara m’a-t-il volé le Ronde 2010 grâce à un moteur ? Ai-je un doute ? Oui… mais ce n’est pas à moi de le dire. C’est très difficile à prouver parce qu’on n’a plus le vélo pour vérifier…"
At 3:12 - 4:00 in the interview video is the exchange, Boonen didn't actually say that, the author of the text article is paraphrasing as if Boonen had said it. It misquotes Boonen

RTBF: Are there motors in bikes, in professional cycling ?
Boonen: Now? No.
RTBF: Were there ever before?
Boonen: It's possible. It's possible.
RTBF: There is this incredible image we all have, from 2013 [sic]*, when Fabian Cancellara dropped you on the Muur - on that day, did you say to yourself "Someone has stolen my Ronde van Vlaanderen from me"? Do you have some doubts?
Boonen: Yes, but it's not for me to say. When you come in second place, it's not for the second-place person to say whether something is not normal. But, it's something very difficult to say, because it's not possible... uh, the bike is gone. So it's not as if...
RTBF: We can't test it, because it's too late.
Boonen: Yes.

So both sides of the Clinic debate on this one are partly right, the words were "put into Boonen's mouth" by quoting the interviewer as if Boonen had said it himself. But Boonen answered in the affirmative when asked if he personally has doubts (that the Ronde van Vlaanderen was 'stolen from' him). He didn't even say outright that he suspects Cancellara had a motor, but that's the clear implication that the media want people to take away from the story. Based on the context of the questioning and the elements of the response
race stolen --> something not normal --> bike ---> test it
Everyone knows what they are getting at, without either of them saying Cancellara had a motor.

*The interviewer gets the date of the Ronde van Vlaanderen incident wrong because he says it was 2013, whereas the well-known video shown is from the 2010 race. Very basic factual mistake which calls into question how much he really has studied about the Muur incident
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Re: Re:

09 Apr 2018 09:01

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:RTBF: Are there motors in bikes, in professional cycling ?
Boonen: Now? No.
RTBF: Were there ever before?
Boonen: It's possible. It's possible.
RTBF: There is this incredible image we all have, from 2013 [sic]*, when Fabian Cancellara dropped you on the Muur - on that day, did you say to yourself "Someone has stolen my Ronde van Vlaanderen from me"? Do you have some doubts?
Boonen: Yes, but it's not for me to say. When you come in second place, it's not for the second-place person to say whether something is not normal. But, it's something very difficult to say, because it's not possible... uh, the bike is gone. So it's not as if...
RTBF: We can't test it, because it's too late.
Boonen: Yes.
Thanx for the clarification. My response was based purely on the article Bardamu had linked to and claimed said something I don't feel it did.
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09 Apr 2018 09:42

All of the Belgian cyclists interviewed in these recent videos have something unfavorable to say about Cancellara: that he was vain, pompous, thought he was a bit better than anyone else, expected special treatments, etc. And Boonen himself said "[Cancellara's] teammates don't speak well of him"

So one could read between the lines to try to figure why these guys trash Cancellara in retirement, after the facts. Maybe just that they always resented Cancellara somewhat, and now that they're retired and don't have to deal with him directly, speak their minds
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Re:

09 Apr 2018 09:49

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:All of the Belgian cyclists interviewed in these recent videos have something unfavorable to say about Cancellara: that he was vain, pompous, thought he was a bit better than anyone else, expected special treatments, etc. And Boonen himself said "[Cancellara's] teammates don't speak well of him"

So one could read between the lines to try to figure why these guys trash Cancellara in retirement, after the facts. Maybe just that they always resented Cancellara somewhat, and now that they're retired and don't have to deal with him directly, speak their minds
But doesn't everybody say he was vain now? Wasn't it one of the Schlecks made the comment about how he'd moan about towels?

Edit: it was Andy Schleck
"He is a special character. He is very loud. He needs a lot of attention. He is a drama queen. He is a diva. He needs his special things. How is he like a diva? He would be covered in dirt and mud and **** after winning Roubaix, and he would be in the shower, and yell out that the towels were not soft enough."
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Re: Re:

10 Apr 2018 04:21

fmk_RoI wrote:But doesn't everybody say he was vain now?
The Schleck comments were a while ago, and he was sort of half-joking
In this interview the Belgian cyclists kind of dissed Cancellara
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/1.3173127

"Everybody would like to think that Cancellara is super-nice - but in the peloton he was arrogant"

And they told a story about refusing to give Cancellara a bidon when he was "desperately" thirsty and looking for a source of water. In other words he was annoying enough that there was no love lost between them

Boonen was happy to allow the "motor doping" rumors to persist by saying that he's not sure himself whether Cancellara used a motor in the 2010 Ronde. Then the media have repeatedly misquoted Boonen and blown that up into more than what he literally said. Maybe later Boonen will 'clarify' in order to downplay the subject or maybe he will just let it stand at that
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Re: Re:

10 Apr 2018 10:36

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:But doesn't everybody say he was vain now?
The Schleck comments were a while ago, and he was sort of half-joking
In this interview the Belgian cyclists kind of dissed Cancellara
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/1.3173127

"Everybody would like to think that Cancellara is super-nice - but in the peloton he was arrogant"

And they told a story about refusing to give Cancellara a bidon when he was "desperately" thirsty and looking for a source of water. In other words he was annoying enough that there was no love lost between them

Boonen was happy to allow the "motor doping" rumors to persist by saying that he's not sure himself whether Cancellara used a motor in the 2010 Ronde. Then the media have repeatedly misquoted Boonen and blown that up into more than what he literally said. Maybe later Boonen will 'clarify' in order to downplay the subject or maybe he will just let it stand at that
Love the bit about PhilGil getting a bidon of Holy water from the chapel on the Muur...
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Re: Re:

18 Apr 2018 12:19

fmk_RoI wrote:
King Boonen wrote:The worst thing is I only know the name as I was looking for the shortest discovery to prize time frame I could find. Turns out that earlier prizes had a quicker turn around but I think the fastest was the Physics prize in 1957 won by Lee and Yang. Lee has a few other records for youngest post-war science prize, youngest American (naturalised after winning) and first Chinese (along with Yang). Complete science nerd.

This is about as off-topic as a mod should be going I think!
I will admit that I couldn't remember what it was killed Curie and Googled and saw Röntgen's name but went with Curie as she was more famous. And I think I may actually have been thinking of the English DNA scientist, Rosalind Franklin, when I thought x-ray poisoning killed Curie.

A BBC documentary of a few years ago said that when Marie Curie's body was exhumed prior to re-interment in the Panthéon in 2015 it was tested for radiation. The conclusion was that there was insufficient residual radiation for it to have killed her and it was more likely that X-Rays were the cause of her death.
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22 Apr 2018 22:13

For those who feel Sagan is motor doping, I’m wondering what you make of Paris-Roubaix this year. I don’t think he had any bike changes, but I could be wrong. Pretty impressive performance, endurance and power-wise. Seems like he’s able to generate the power needed over time to make the race in the biggest classics now.

Seems unlikely someone with his visibility would start and end the biggest race of the year with a motor. What do you think?
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23 Apr 2018 07:46

nah! sagan was strong and rode well.................................

PR success ended up just like Flanders/LBL success where winner took initiative at the right time

in each case winner should not have won but chasers failed to organise and chase not wishing

to pull along rivals.....?

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29 Apr 2018 21:59

Off bike topic, but how other sport handle cheating. Reigning Grand National Champion Jared Mees just got busted for tire doping (adding chems to make the tire work "better") in the AMA American Flat Track Championship. His "penalty" was losing his win, points, and money from the race that the tire was taken from (last week in Atlanta). This weekend he won the event in Ft. Worth.
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Re:

29 Apr 2018 23:52

jmdirt wrote:Off bike topic, but how other sport handle cheating. Reigning Grand National Champion Jared Mees just got busted for tire doping (adding chems to make the tire work "better") in the AMA American Flat Track Championship. His "penalty" was losing his win, points, and money from the race that the tire was taken from (last week in Atlanta). This weekend he won the event in Ft. Worth.
Do they put it mostly on the sides of the tires to improve 'grip' in the tight turns at the ends of the track? Or how does it work? Clearly being able to take a tighter line in the curves without crashing would be worth a lot of time overall. Is there any use for this in bicycle racing, because as far as I know, there are no UCI regulations about the rubber the bike tires are made of, or whether chemical goop is applied to the rubber. In disciplines like cyclocross and MTB there are some UCI rules about tire width and that the tires can't have spikes.
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Re: Re:

30 Apr 2018 09:28

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:
jmdirt wrote:Off bike topic, but how other sport handle cheating. Reigning Grand National Champion Jared Mees just got busted for tire doping (adding chems to make the tire work "better") in the AMA American Flat Track Championship. His "penalty" was losing his win, points, and money from the race that the tire was taken from (last week in Atlanta). This weekend he won the event in Ft. Worth.
Do they put it mostly on the sides of the tires to improve 'grip' in the tight turns at the ends of the track? Or how does it work? Clearly being able to take a tighter line in the curves without crashing would be worth a lot of time overall. Is there any use for this in bicycle racing, because as far as I know, there are no UCI regulations about the rubber the bike tires are made of, or whether chemical goop is applied to the rubber. In disciplines like cyclocross and MTB there are some UCI rules about tire width and that the tires can't have spikes.


I think that these rules aren't really required in cycling. The trade off between grip and rolling resistance means that requirements for bike tyres are different as cyclists effectively have an engine that will fatigue. I know that extra grip no doubt means extra fuel for cars but I think the trade off is less. For example, it might help descending a hill to have increased grip where gravity can help reduce the fatigue cost, but it's going to be detrimental on the flat/going uphill.
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Re: Re:

30 Apr 2018 12:37

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:
jmdirt wrote:Off bike topic, but how other sport handle cheating. Reigning Grand National Champion Jared Mees just got busted for tire doping (adding chems to make the tire work "better") in the AMA American Flat Track Championship. His "penalty" was losing his win, points, and money from the race that the tire was taken from (last week in Atlanta). This weekend he won the event in Ft. Worth.
Do they put it mostly on the sides of the tires to improve 'grip' in the tight turns at the ends of the track? Or how does it work? Clearly being able to take a tighter line in the curves without crashing would be worth a lot of time overall. Is there any use for this in bicycle racing, because as far as I know, there are no UCI regulations about the rubber the bike tires are made of, or whether chemical goop is applied to the rubber. In disciplines like cyclocross and MTB there are some UCI rules about tire width and that the tires can't have spikes.

I'm not sure what the process is. Here is part of the AFT release: “a statistically- significant presence of several chemicals known to be used in motorsports to alter tire compounds, thereby enhancing performance. These include: Hexanedioic acid bis(ethylhexyl) ester, Dodecanoic acid and 1,3-Benzenedicarboxylic acid, bis(2-ethylhexyl) ester.”
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30 Apr 2018 16:31

Cheating has long been accepted in Nascar as just part of the sport. It's always been a cat and mouse game with the inspectors and the car/engine builders. There have been some penalties but no "death sentences." However, motorcycle and auto racing are already motorized sports, so not sure that analogy works...trying to think of another human-powered sports where motors have been used to cheat...would be cool if a rowing team used an electric propeller!
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Re:

30 Apr 2018 17:02

Bolder wrote:Cheating has long been accepted in Nascar as just part of the sport. It's always been a cat and mouse game with the inspectors and the car/engine builders. There have been some penalties but no "death sentences." However, motorcycle and auto racing are already motorized sports, so not sure that analogy works...trying to think of another human-powered sports where motors have been used to cheat...would be cool if a rowing team used an electric propeller!

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Re: Motor doping thread

13 May 2018 01:11

Sagan Attack similar to Cancellara's Velocity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ygpaL0xfbA

Pure juice.
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Re: Motor doping thread

13 May 2018 08:14

TubularBills wrote:Sagan Attack similar to Cancellara's Velocity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ygpaL0xfbA

Pure juice.

No. Nils said he could have gone with him but didn't because a) he thought Sagan was just testing and b) Thorsten Schmidt told him to let QS do the work and he should save his legs for the "real final".
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13 May 2018 22:14

Not even close to Cancellara 2010. He took off like a rocket 50km from the finish!
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