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Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 20:34

CTQ wrote:so Stannard is racing with a kind of flag in his back


Or that is a fan wearing a Colombian flag walking at the side of the road obscured by Standard. Not usre why Stannard would wear a Colombian flag.
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 20:39

ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:
ontheroad wrote:Then there was Philippe Gilbert's agent Vincent Wathelet also, is he deluded as well?

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/

Look who his source for this information is. It's Varjas again

Quote: "When you see that in 2010 some very famous riders carried their bikes in their hotel room and slept next to them, you ask a lot of questions because it is neither the purpose, nor the practice, in our profession.” <--Varjas was probably not his source on that one, or any of the other fantastic, juicy bits of info in the article. Or did you just see the name Varjas and stop reading?

John Swanson


Definitely called out Cancellara with that one.
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

06 Sep 2017 20:40

Freddythefrog wrote:
samhocking wrote:
Yes, but not using the principle of a series wound DC Starter Motor principle Freddy was saying could work where half of it is in the rim and half in the frame (surely the frame would have to within 1mm of the rim for this to even work, not to mention there's only the seat stay and chain stay to put all this). Also speed falls rapidly with the increase in load in this type of motor, so it is really not suitable for constant speed application like riding a bike and adjustable speed control wirelessly or based on cardiac stress Varjas claims they are controlled by. I guess speed controllers could be feasible, I have no idea, but with decrease in speed, torque of the motor decreases sharply too so seems simply the wrong application in a bicycle of variable speed up and down variious terrain and speeds required. Miniaturising all this to create the claimed choice of 30 to 3000 watts Varjas claims is possible in the video seems far-fetched to me.

Again, you are misquoting the application. Firstly you ridiculed the idea of a d.c. motor based on fields without permanent magnets and then later you stated a em field motor could not run on d.c and so I gave you the classic application of just such a motor.

I did not say hook a car starter motor up to a bike. You need to re-read my far earlier post and see what I did explain.

At the rim, say around 40 km/hr is just under 12 m/s so as power equals force x velocity, even as little an average of say 2.5 N of switched attraction/repulsion or say 1.25 N to each of a pair passing through the forks would give 30W. 1.25 N is about equal to 4 1/2 ounces. or 2 1/8 ounces to/from each magnet in each stay to each magnet in the rim. Get a pair of those good permanent magnets and hold them 1 cm from each other. I think you will find they are generating far more force than that needed to lift just over 2 ounces of mass. That is a force per magnet that is around 60 % of that needed to lift an envelope at the minimum weight category for an inland Royal Mail letter. At slower speeds, to get the same power output the force would have to increase. What the hell, increase it by 66% up to the limit of a minimum weight category letter in the UK mail. All you need is electronics to radio link the matched switching - meat and drink to your current electronic engineer undergrad. (Edit don't radio link - simply switch as the rate of change of back emf causes the coil current to change at a certain rate.)


OK, so are youre now basically describing a Bedini-type motor, but one with usable torque to drive a rider and wheel, ie a high torque pulsed rotational wheel similar to the one Varjas describes, but the specialist permanent magnets in the rim Varjas claims he uses are replaced with electromagnets driven by a, another battery too? I've not really looked much into Bedini wheels, certainly not in the context of it being like a starter motor in a car anyway.
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 20:50

El Pistolero wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:
ontheroad wrote:Then there was Philippe Gilbert's agent Vincent Wathelet also, is he deluded as well?

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/

Look who his source for this information is. It's Varjas again

Quote: "When you see that in 2010 some very famous riders carried their bikes in their hotel room and slept next to them, you ask a lot of questions because it is neither the purpose, nor the practice, in our profession.” <--Varjas was probably not his source on that one, or any of the other fantastic, juicy bits of info in the article. Or did you just see the name Varjas and stop reading?

John Swanson


Definitely called out Cancellara with that one.

Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/
Parker
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 21:34

Benotti69 wrote:
CTQ wrote:so Stannard is racing with a kind of flag in his back


Or that is a fan wearing a Colombian flag walking at the side of the road obscured by Standard. Not usre why Stannard would wear a Colombian flag.



a fan with no leg........Wow !!!!!
a blue bag with a Spanish flag perharps
CTQ
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

06 Sep 2017 21:58

samhocking wrote:OK, so are youre now basically describing a Bedini-type motor, but one with usable torque to drive a rider and wheel, ie a high torque pulsed rotational wheel similar to the one Varjas describes, but the specialist permanent magnets in the rim Varjas claims he uses are replaced with electromagnets driven by a, another battery too? I've not really looked much into Bedini wheels, certainly not in the context of it being like a starter motor in a car anyway.


Okay. So physics isn't currently your thing, but you are obviously enthusiastic. I just have to say that you might want to brush up on this. Lots of places to start, like Wikipedia as an obvious one. My most sincere recommendation, though, is the Feynman series of lectures which have recently become available online for free. You obviously have a good mind and a grasp for the fundamentals, but I'm sorry. Your arguments just don't stack up. With a bit of a nudge, you could be a force to be reckoned with.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 22:02

Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 22:10

ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I've certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons
Parker
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 22:12

Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons


Riders were on their bikes on trainers at night in hotel rooms in the mid 90s due to risk of blood thickening from EPO and possible death in their sleep.
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 22:15

Benotti69 wrote:
Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons


Riders were on their bikes on trainers at night in hotel rooms in the mid 90s due to risk of blood thickening from EPO and possible death in their sleep.


I know. I've not heard of anyone doing that since the 90s though.
Parker
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 22:28

Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I've certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons


Yes of course, imagine a thief getting his hands on a bike and then discovering it had a motor.
ontheroad
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 23:19

Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I've certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons


Eh. You conflated a single theft from a van with all pros sleeping with their bikes. A bit ludicrous, don't you think? There's *probably* a few layers of security that management would undertake before the "must sleep with bikes" scenario.

John Swanson

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2017 23:39

ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I've certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons


Eh. You conflated a single theft from a van with all pros sleeping with their bikes. A bit ludicrous, don't you think? There's *probably* a few layers of security that management would undertake before the "must sleep with bikes" scenario.

John Swanson

John Swanson


If you read the article, it includes the line "The bike thieves are suspected of being part of a gang that has regularly targeted teams in Italy.". I'm sure that would have caused some degree paranoia across teams.

Now let's look at the motor angle, because I have a question. Presumably the rider kept the bike in his room to ensure that people not 'in the know' didn't have a look at it or work on it. If this was the case, then why bring it to the hotel in the first place? Why not keep it off-site and deliver it in the morning? I assume there must be others involved other than just the rider. Sleeping with your bike is just going to invite questions from those not in the know.
Last edited by Parker on 06 Sep 2017 23:50, edited 1 time in total.
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06 Sep 2017 23:47

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 00:37

Benotti69 wrote:
Craigee wrote:


Thanks Benotti69.

So convenient for ALL the Rio bikes to be broken. It says Kenny broke 5 bikes. Lucky he didn't break any at the Olympics and you'd think that it would be hard to have the confidence to put out full power when you've broken 5 bikes already. No worries for him though.

They make no secret that it was all about keeping these bikes secret for Rio but also the next model secret leading into Tokyo but what the hell happened to the UCI rule that the bikes used have to be available in shops for the public?


you are welcome :)

Stinks of motors!!! Every bike broken and no one in the sport batted an eyelid, of course none broken at the oh so important gold winning moment.

That no one questioned this in cycling makes me think that motors are in use across the board!


Cav took 8 seconds off his 4km PB. And he had the cheek to say he was disappointed not to break Wiggins' Olympic record? The female sprinters couldn't qualify a team for the team sprint but they turned up in Rio and were top qualifiers in the Sprint. Trott had done how many omniums and IPs? Plenty but she takes seconds off her PB for the individual pursuit. Skinner improved out of sight in 2016 from average to a brilliant 9.7 then slips back again this year to 15th fastest. Exactly the same with Katy Marchant. Slipped back to 16th this year. Something stinks for sure.

If the other countries don't demand bike checks and done properly with good testing equipment in Tokyo then they get what they deserve. They were all suspicious of GB in Rio and it was all about motors.
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Re:

07 Sep 2017 01:08

jmdirt wrote:I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.


I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 02:00

Huapango wrote:
jmdirt wrote:I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.


I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!
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07 Sep 2017 05:43

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!


Plenty of insiders at least hinting at thinking/knowing motors are used in the pro peloton.

From the top of my head a list of insiders that have not been mentioned in the recent discussion in this thread:

Cedric Vasseur
Laurent Jalabert
Mario Cippolini
Jose de Cauwer
Gianni Bugno
Jacky Durand
Cyrille Guimard
Davide Cassani
Nico Mattan
Karl Vannieuwkerke
Danilo Di Luca
Michele Ferrari
Tienus
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07 Sep 2017 05:45

For those who think Varjas has zero credibility:

Who else than Varjas could have leaked the Barfield emails?
Tienus
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07 Sep 2017 05:50

The rear wheel with hub motor shown in the latest stade 2 report looks like a four spoke TT wheel as used by protour riders. Could be Corima or Pro fro example.
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