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Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

07 Sep 2017 17:04

Tienus wrote:
Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?


These scanners where operated by the UCI from the back of a motorcycle. Riders could see when they where being used. Like the ipad it was looking like a pr show from the UCI. For example the scanning was done twice on live tv just before Cummings took off.


There would still be a residual heat signature though. I saw the IR bike (or bikes) coming up to groups of riders from behind. It's somewhat implausible teams would risk cat and mouse games switching the motors on and off.
adamfo
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 17:18

Parker wrote:
jmdirt wrote:
In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.

Eh?

In 1998 we has the Festina Affair (before anyone had heard of Bassons). EPO use was no secret throughout much of the 90s. Bjarne Riis was being called Mr 60%. It was just who and to what extent that was disputed. And journalists didn't really care much until Festina forced them to.

The idea that nobody knew about doping in the 80s and 90s is just plain wrong.

Eh? indeed. Doping is much older than 80s, but my point was about how people from inside the teams/platoon went public about EPO use/abuse, and wondering why we aren't hearing from the platoon about motors.
jmdirt
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 17:32

ontheroad wrote:
DanielSong39 wrote:
Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?

Thermal cameras have many drawbacks:

I know.

I'm not claiming they are the answer. (I don't even think there's a problem which needs an answer)


There's always the option of accepting that motors are part of bike racing and enjoying the sport for what it is. If you don't have a problem with that, that's AOK.


Exactly. It's the totally defensive 'see no evil, dismiss at all costs' approach that is bizarre without some sort of an agenda. Taking oneself into the clinic to constantly seek out reasons to dismiss motors is peculiar. If you don't think there are motors fine, go and enjoy the sport and stop posting in here, otherwise you are only running the risk of looking like a fool when the story eventually blows up completely.


Using your 'logic' why don't you stop posting here ? You haven't demonstrated the truth or existence of motors in the pro-peleton by evidence or argument. Instead you and others use innuendo and fallacious arguments which risk making you look like fools !
Last edited by adamfo on 07 Sep 2017 17:42, edited 1 time in total.
adamfo
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 17:41

Benotti69 wrote:
Parker wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:I am also of the opinion that Sky released the video of Ag2R riders hanging onto cars to deflect from the motors story. A pot shot at the French.

It was remarkably obliging of the Ag2R riders to hang on to the car for them then.


A common part of the grupetto is holding onto cars. That Sky showed French riders doing it led to me that thought.



One was German
adamfo
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Re:

07 Sep 2017 17:54

Tienus wrote:For those who think Varjas has zero credibility:

Who else than Varjas could have leaked the Barfield emails?


Is it true Varjas spent time in Hungarian prison for tax evasion ?
adamfo
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 17:56

adamfo wrote:
Tienus wrote:For those who think Varjas has zero credibility:

Who else than Varjas could have leaked the Barfield emails?


Is it true Varjas spent time in Hungarian prison for tax evasion ?


He did because he didn’t pay tax on the $2m he received to build a motor in a bike on exclusive contract.
User avatar thehog
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07 Sep 2017 17:57

I hope you enjoyed today's demonstration!
DanielSong39
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 19:15

thehog wrote:
adamfo wrote:
Tienus wrote:For those who think Varjas has zero credibility:

Who else than Varjas could have leaked the Barfield emails?


Is it true Varjas spent time in Hungarian prison for tax evasion ?


He did because he didn’t pay tax on the $2m he received to build a motor in a bike on exclusive contract.


You need to inset the word 'allegedly' because the truth of that claim has not be
demonstrated beyond doubt :geek:
adamfo
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 19:54

adamfo wrote:
Tienus wrote:For those who think Varjas has zero credibility:

Who else than Varjas could have leaked the Barfield emails?


Is it true Varjas spent time in Hungarian prison for tax evasion ?


Why the deflection with this question?

It is true that Barfield send the mail.
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/06/hidden-motors-uci-technical-manager-accused-of-alerting-others-to-police-operations/
Tienus
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07 Sep 2017 19:56

You need to inset the word 'allegedly' because the truth of that claim has not be
demonstrated beyond doubt :geek:


Does it matter?
There is no doubt about the Barfield mails and those are giving Varjas credibility in my opinion.
Tienus
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Re:

07 Sep 2017 21:01

Tienus wrote:
You need to inset the word 'allegedly' because the truth of that claim has not be
demonstrated beyond doubt :geek:


Does it matter?
There is no doubt about the Barfield mails and those are giving Varjas credibility in my opinion.

+1
That email from Millar's bestest friend for life to Varjas, absolutely locks Varjas in position.

One can only view that connection with Millar back to 2002 as casting serious concern over the manner of that ride in the 2003 World Champ win.
Freddythefrog
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 22:09

yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:So I was right - All the more reason for the French Police to more effectively deploy their resources - Let Sporting Federations deal with motor doping and WADA and it's anti-doping agencies deal with drugs.


Well you are also wrong. WADA and the UCI are not effective in dealing with cheating. In fact they enable it. We see that time and time again.

Motor doping will become illegal. The French are not going to risk damaging their biggest tourist advertisment and the delay is giving time to teams to find new ways to cheat.


How strange - When I have ever posted WADA, its national agencies or UCI are doing a good job - And today 'The Clinic's poster boy in Travis Tygart had his agency USADA again deliver a lenient sanction to an American athlete - Then we have CAS in which I've been extremely critical - The fact is you 'hang your hat' on French police being involved in detecting alleged moto doping, when it's not in their brief or responsibility - I want my Police Force to wisely use their resources to keep society safe - No matter which way you box it, dice it or spin it's an inappropriate use of resources.


Travis Tygart is a joke.

No spin from me.

The French police were going to get involved as is proven in leaked UCI emails, but French government put a halt to it. That is not spin.

But back to the matter is hand. Motors in bikes/wheels.

Boy Sky are making a mockery of the sport.
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 22:10

adamfo wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
Parker wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:I am also of the opinion that Sky released the video of Ag2R riders hanging onto cars to deflect from the motors story. A pot shot at the French.

It was remarkably obliging of the Ag2R riders to hang on to the car for them then.


A common part of the grupetto is holding onto cars. That Sky showed French riders doing it led to me that thought.



One was German


Take the pedanitc hat off for a moment. A French teams riders! Jeez. :rolleyes:
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 22:33

Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:So I was right - All the more reason for the French Police to more effectively deploy their resources - Let Sporting Federations deal with motor doping and WADA and it's anti-doping agencies deal with drugs.


Well you are also wrong. WADA and the UCI are not effective in dealing with cheating. In fact they enable it. We see that time and time again.

Motor doping will become illegal. The French are not going to risk damaging their biggest tourist advertisment and the delay is giving time to teams to find new ways to cheat.


How strange - When I have ever posted WADA, its national agencies or UCI are doing a good job - And today 'The Clinic's poster boy in Travis Tygart had his agency USADA again deliver a lenient sanction to an American athlete - Then we have CAS in which I've been extremely critical - The fact is you 'hang your hat' on French police being involved in detecting alleged moto doping, when it's not in their brief or responsibility - I want my Police Force to wisely use their resources to keep society safe - No matter which way you box it, dice it or spin it's an inappropriate use of resources.


Travis Tygart is a joke.

No spin from me.

The French police were going to get involved as is proven in leaked UCI emails, but French government put a halt to it. That is not spin.

But back to the matter is hand. Motors in bikes/wheels.

Boy Sky are making a mockery of the sport.


The obvious question then, (if one was suspicious of motors in cycling along with Sky), would be who's supplying Team Sky with motors and why is Varjas along with LeMond, Strade 2 and various Italians so intent on trying to tell everyone including fans, UCI, French Police & ASO how to find them? My reasoning would be LeMond is simply here, because he wants to believe Armstrong paid the $2M to Varjas in 1998 for a 10 year exclusive deal and explains why Armstrong was the better USA man than him at cycling and Varjas is on it because Sky are not using his motorizing services and are beating those that do perhaps and Strade 2 and various Italians are happy for the ride, because their prime audience haven't seen their riders doing so well recently and want some answers and justification perhaps? I still fail to see why Varjas is so keen though. What is the benefit to him? He's already said "if the money is big, why not?" for reasons to sell motors to pro teams.
samhocking
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Re: Re:

08 Sep 2017 12:05

samhocking wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:So I was right - All the more reason for the French Police to more effectively deploy their resources - Let Sporting Federations deal with motor doping and WADA and it's anti-doping agencies deal with drugs.


Well you are also wrong. WADA and the UCI are not effective in dealing with cheating. In fact they enable it. We see that time and time again.

Motor doping will become illegal. The French are not going to risk damaging their biggest tourist advertisment and the delay is giving time to teams to find new ways to cheat.


How strange - When I have ever posted WADA, its national agencies or UCI are doing a good job - And today 'The Clinic's poster boy in Travis Tygart had his agency USADA again deliver a lenient sanction to an American athlete - Then we have CAS in which I've been extremely critical - The fact is you 'hang your hat' on French police being involved in detecting alleged moto doping, when it's not in their brief or responsibility - I want my Police Force to wisely use their resources to keep society safe - No matter which way you box it, dice it or spin it's an inappropriate use of resources.


Travis Tygart is a joke.

No spin from me.

The French police were going to get involved as is proven in leaked UCI emails, but French government put a halt to it. That is not spin.

But back to the matter is hand. Motors in bikes/wheels.

Boy Sky are making a mockery of the sport.


The obvious question then, (if one was suspicious of motors in cycling along with Sky), would be who's supplying Team Sky with motors and why is Varjas along with LeMond, Strade 2 and various Italians so intent on trying to tell everyone including fans, UCI, French Police & ASO how to find them? My reasoning would be LeMond is simply here, because he wants to believe Armstrong paid the $2M to Varjas in 1998 for a 10 year exclusive deal and explains why Armstrong was the better USA man than him at cycling and Varjas is on it because Sky are not using his motorizing services and are beating those that do perhaps and Strade 2 and various Italians are happy for the ride, because their prime audience haven't seen their riders doing so well recently and want some answers and justification perhaps? I still fail to see why Varjas is so keen though. What is the benefit to him? He's already said "if the money is big, why not?" for reasons to sell motors to pro teams.


Most cycling fans dont care about the 'How', they only want to know did their guy win.

So a small section of cycling fans are voiciferous on various internet platforms about motors. Well that is not going to change anything is it?

Can you point to big changes from inside the sport in relation to cheating?

Kimmage wrote a book about the doping and fully expected UCI and most of the sport to pat him on the back and everyone would say "Stop Doping" and a clean sport would be born. He looks back and laughs at his naivety.

Why is it any different now? The same people run the sport with the same morals as before.

To keep denying it is so easy. It seems crazy that riders would use motors, because if caught..........well we have been here so many times.

That the UCI didn't check every single bike when they got Femke tells you everything. Why not pull every bike apart at that race because that would have probably caught lots and killed a lot of the following, but boy it would have made people think before turning up to a race with a motor. There are so many things, real serious things UCI could do at every race, organise a parc ferme where teams must deposit 2 bikes for every rider so they can be xrayed and scanned and opened and marked before the race and same again after the race. Any rider found to be finishing on an unmarked bike 1 year suspension.

But hey this is pro cycling and cheating is par for the course. Motors was of course going to happen. Jeez guys were willing to risk blood transfusions with soigneurs FFS!!!!

No matter how much you protest that motors are not in use, you are arguing against a tidal wave of cheating that has been going on since the TdF started. Motors is a logical step in pro cycling culture.
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08 Sep 2017 13:11

Benotti69, as much as we seem to disagree on the 'hows' of motors, we agree that the UCI could prevent motor use if they wanted to. We also agree that if racers were willing to risk killing themselves with chemicals, using a motor is an easy decision for them.

EDIT: Its been said several times in this thread that the powers that be don't want to find motors because it would kill cycling. I wonder if they could use the secrecy that they use/used with EPO, and early motor experimentation to kill motor use? They could go in and tear down a few bikes each day, and if they find something they could tell the team(s) to stop or they will get to be the whipping post for the entire sport. As a fan, sure I like transparency, but if they secretly flush motor use I'm OK with that.
Last edited by jmdirt on 09 Sep 2017 01:00, edited 1 time in total.
jmdirt
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08 Sep 2017 13:48

Varjas' motors are probably 10 years out of date and haven't been used in the modern pro peloton for a long time. Hence, his eagerness to talk.

Whenever people are willing to talk about their methodology you can be assured that it's years out of date and the peloton has long since moved on to the next best thing.

People who have the current cutting-edge technology don't talk.
DanielSong39
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Re: Motor doping thread

09 Sep 2017 12:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6w3TJs0lks

Mechanical Doping in Cycling

Came across this - dont know if anyones seen it - CANCELLARA BIKE CHANGE AT 2mins 30secs and then at 3mins 7 secs
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09 Sep 2017 12:35

@ Cycle Chic

In the video you post Nicco Mattan thinks the changes are suspiscious.

The full video about those changes is from Jacky Durand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpiCpPW7kuk&t=196s

This article has the text for those who dont understand French:
http://www.dhnet.be/sports/cyclisme/jacky-durand-cancellara-n-a-pas-tout-dit-video-51b7980be4b0de6db983473e
Tienus
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Re: Motor doping thread

09 Sep 2017 12:50

Cycle Chic wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6w3TJs0lks

Mechanical Doping in Cycling

Came across this - dont know if anyones seen it - CANCELLARA BIKE CHANGE AT 2mins 30secs and then at 3mins 7 secs


Cancellara probably just wanted his climbing bike.
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