Log in:  

Register

Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Eshnar, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

20 Nov 2017 12:47

"As an editor and reporter, I recoiled in horror after reading each besmirching comment. Yes, many of these comments reflect the brand of chatter that even we cycling journalists engage in. To print them, however, is enough to make a defamation lawyer faint. My hope is that Gaimon’s publisher, Penguin Books, has a robust legal department."
Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/commentary/commentary-reviewing-gaimons-draft-animals-book_452041#pFrfRHKMvItL0wAq.99
Bolder
Member
 
Posts: 565
Joined: 25 Jun 2015 07:29

Re:

20 Nov 2017 14:40

Bolder wrote:"As an editor and reporter, I recoiled in horror after reading each besmirching comment. Yes, many of these comments reflect the brand of chatter that even we cycling journalists engage in. To print them, however, is enough to make a defamation lawyer faint. My hope is that Gaimon’s publisher, Penguin Books, has a robust legal department."
Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/commentary/commentary-reviewing-gaimons-draft-animals-book_452041#pFrfRHKMvItL0wAq.99


Indeed

So if Cancellara doesn't sue Gaimon (and the tweeted bike ride challenge would be an odd precursor to legal action)what could be inferred from that?

Because if Cancellara didn't use a motor I can't see why he wouldn't wheel the lawyers out. Penguin would be forced to pulp the books and make a payment to close it down. Gaimon would be forced to issue an apology

But if he did use a motor...
Wiggo's Package
Member
 
Posts: 553
Joined: 07 Mar 2017 14:27

Re: Re:

20 Nov 2017 16:16

Wiggo's Package wrote:
Bolder wrote:"As an editor and reporter, I recoiled in horror after reading each besmirching comment. Yes, many of these comments reflect the brand of chatter that even we cycling journalists engage in. To print them, however, is enough to make a defamation lawyer faint. My hope is that Gaimon’s publisher, Penguin Books, has a robust legal department."
Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/commentary/commentary-reviewing-gaimons-draft-animals-book_452041#pFrfRHKMvItL0wAq.99


Indeed

So if Cancellara doesn't sue Gaimon (and the tweeted bike ride challenge would be an odd precursor to legal action)what could be inferred from that?

Because if Cancellara didn't use a motor I can't see why he wouldn't wheel the lawyers out. Penguin would be forced to pulp the books and make a payment to close it down. Gaimon would be forced to issue an apology

But if he did use a motor...


Depends on the wording. Alleged use of a motor.

That Canc is doing the meat head thing of challenging Gaimon to a race is pathetic.
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,516
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

20 Nov 2017 19:22

Wiggo's Package wrote:
Bolder wrote:"As an editor and reporter, I recoiled in horror after reading each besmirching comment. Yes, many of these comments reflect the brand of chatter that even we cycling journalists engage in. To print them, however, is enough to make a defamation lawyer faint. My hope is that Gaimon’s publisher, Penguin Books, has a robust legal department."
Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/commentary/commentary-reviewing-gaimons-draft-animals-book_452041#pFrfRHKMvItL0wAq.99


Indeed

So if Cancellara doesn't sue Gaimon (and the tweeted bike ride challenge would be an odd precursor to legal action)what could be inferred from that?

Because if Cancellara didn't use a motor I can't see why he wouldn't wheel the lawyers out. Penguin would be forced to pulp the books and make a payment to close it down. Gaimon would be forced to issue an apology

But if he did use a motor...


Well one reason is that it would cost an incredible amount of money. The other would be that libel is hard to establish, jurisdiction depending. The other is that it would result in even more publicity for the claims and further damage to his reputation over time, whether he was exonerated or not.

I'm not arguing he didn't use a motor. But there are completely valid reasons why he'd not pursue legal avenues here.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,090
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

23 Nov 2017 15:03

Equipment and Fight against technological fraud Commission
President

Mr. Bob STAPLETON (USA)

Members
Harald Tiedemann Hansen (NOR)
Gilles Delion (FRA)
Dragomir Kouzov (BUL)
Philippe Mariën (BEL)
Robbert de Kock (SUI), Cycling industry representative
Riders’ representative - TBC
Teams’ representative - TBC
link
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,789
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re:

23 Nov 2017 15:17

fmk_RoI wrote:
Equipment and Fight against technological fraud Commission
President

Mr. Bob STAPLETON (USA)

Members
Harald Tiedemann Hansen (NOR)
Gilles Delion (FRA)
Dragomir Kouzov (BUL)
Philippe Mariën (BEL)
Robbert de Kock (SUI), Cycling industry representative
Riders’ representative - TBC
Teams’ representative - TBC
link


Stapleton?
Nothing in cycling ever changes. The filthy circus rolls on. This is so funny. Thanks for posting.
User avatar MarkvW
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,228
Joined: 10 Aug 2010 20:13

Re: Re:

24 Nov 2017 05:35

Bolder wrote:"As an editor and reporter, I recoiled in horror after reading each besmirching comment. Yes, many of these comments reflect the brand of chatter that even we cycling journalists engage in. To print them, however, is enough to make a defamation lawyer faint. My hope is that Gaimon’s publisher, Penguin Books, has a robust legal department."
The journalist writes this as an editor and reporter, but not as lawyer. I have nothing to do with the legal profession myself, but my father was an attorney for forty years, so even I know that technically it isn't true. A legally unwise practice in general to make potentially libelous insinuations, but in this case the trash-talking by Gaimon is just a provocation, and to try to take the most-idolized riders down a notch. Kind of a valid point, but it's also kind of sour-grapes stuff by a domestique-type like Gaimon, who never got to be star at the world level
So if Cancellara doesn't sue Gaimon (and the tweeted bike ride challenge would be an odd precursor to legal action)what could be inferred from that?
Probably the inference would be: that there is no legal basis, or it is so flimsy that it is not worthwhile to even file a lawsuit from overseas. Just an idle threat by Cancellara's manager who either doesn't know better or who thought he had to issue some kind of denial to signal disapproval
Because if Cancellara didn't use a motor I can't see why he wouldn't wheel the lawyers out. Penguin would be forced to pulp the books and make a payment to close it down. Gaimon would be forced to issue an apology
But if he did use a motor...
Very good point, why not just ignore the book? Cancellara already said the concept of him using a motor is "so stupid that he has no words" to describe it. As you said, shouldn't that be enough that the rumors would not bother Cancellara anymore? Draft Animals is currently the number-one-selling book on Amazon.com in the Cycling category, but that is not saying very much - since cycling memoirs are not a big general-interest market for books. Neither Penguin nor Gaimon will ever make big money from Draft Animals. He probably did get a larger-than-average advance on his book, and its sales rank did increase further after the Cancellara controversy appeared in the media. The hardcore cycling fans are buying a lot of copies now, but then interest will fade away, and sell sporadically in the long run
ClassicomanoLuigi
Member
 
Posts: 536
Joined: 06 Jul 2016 03:20

Re: Motor doping thread

26 Nov 2017 15:59

oh la la
Sagan like a bullet!

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bbu7DeXnWXa/
pastronef
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,332
Joined: 19 Aug 2011 08:25
Location: Italia

26 Nov 2017 17:25

kingjr
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 09 Sep 2012 18:53
Location: Germany

Re:

27 Nov 2017 02:05

kingjr wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPX_PGojGLI


I don't speak Italian...what's the general point of this video? Thanks.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,090
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

Re: Re:

27 Nov 2017 03:52

red_flanders wrote:
kingjr wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPX_PGojGLI


I don't speak Italian...what's the general point of this video? Thanks.


no need to listen to the sound.

the point is to compare Saronni and Sagan speeds to prove Sagan is not using a motor.
pastronef
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,332
Joined: 19 Aug 2011 08:25
Location: Italia

01 Dec 2017 02:53

This cheating with motors is really getting out of hand. Now even NFL players are using them:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/video-showing-nfl-player-levitating-is-100-real-2017-11

I'm ready to give that guy at least a four game suspension right now.
Merckx index
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,758
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 19:19

Re:

03 Dec 2017 17:39

Merckx index wrote:This cheating with motors is really getting out of hand. Now even NFL players are using them:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/video-showing-nfl-player-levitating-is-100-real-2017-11

I'm ready to give that guy at least a four game suspension right now.


Damn, now I have to rethink everything. Is it possible that the NFL actually has anti-gravity drugs?!
Ironhead Slim
Junior Member
 
Posts: 90
Joined: 07 Jul 2015 17:48

15 Dec 2017 17:54

So does the CF news weaken the motor argument? If motors are as 'advanced' as some people are asserting why would he need to OD on chemicals?

Before you even go there, IMO motors exist and have been used in the platoon, they just aren't as magical as many profess (read upthread for my too many opinions:)).
jmdirt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,135
Joined: 06 Dec 2013 17:33

Re:

15 Dec 2017 18:04

jmdirt wrote:So does the CF news weaken the motor argument? If motors are as 'advanced' as some people are asserting why would he need to OD on chemicals?

Before you even go there, IMO motors exist and have been used in the platoon, they just aren't as magical as many profess (read upthread for my too many opinions:)).


When i look at the harpin move from poels/froome, perhaps the answer is that motors being apllied with as little risk as possible- is simply a small booster to add to other marginal gains. Like using inhalors to transport drugs more efficiently through the system.

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.
User avatar mrhender
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,656
Joined: 11 Jul 2013 07:54

Re: Re:

15 Dec 2017 18:18

mrhender wrote:
jmdirt wrote:So does the CF news weaken the motor argument? If motors are as 'advanced' as some people are asserting why would he need to OD on chemicals?

Before you even go there, IMO motors exist and have been used in the platoon, they just aren't as magical as many profess (read upthread for my too many opinions:)).


When i look at the harpin move from poels/froome, perhaps the answer is that motors being apllied with as little risk as possible- is simply a small booster to add to other marginal gains. Like using inhalors to transport drugs more efficiently through the system.

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.


Yup, classic application of "marginal gains".

I'm sure Cancellara could have won the Tour de France 5 times if the motor was left running but he decided not to push things that far.
DanielSong39
Member
 
Posts: 1,053
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 13:03

Re: Re:

15 Dec 2017 18:33

DanielSong39 wrote:
mrhender wrote:
jmdirt wrote:So does the CF news weaken the motor argument? If motors are as 'advanced' as some people are asserting why would he need to OD on chemicals?

Before you even go there, IMO motors exist and have been used in the platoon, they just aren't as magical as many profess (read upthread for my too many opinions:)).


When i look at the harpin move from poels/froome, perhaps the answer is that motors being apllied with as little risk as possible- is simply a small booster to add to other marginal gains. Like using inhalors to transport drugs more efficiently through the system.

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.


Yup, classic application of "marginal gains".

I'm sure Cancellara could have won the Tour de France 5 times if the motor was left running but he decided not to push things that far.


Yeah, only Team Sky riders use motors to win GTs :lol:
Last edited by miguelindurain111 on 15 Dec 2017 18:34, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar miguelindurain111
Junior Member
 
Posts: 228
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 13:03

15 Dec 2017 18:34

ax3 and ventoux 2013 were heavy duty motors, no doubt
User avatar zlev11
Member
 
Posts: 619
Joined: 23 Jan 2011 17:49

Re:

15 Dec 2017 18:38

zlev11 wrote:ax3 and ventoux 2013 were heavy duty motors, no doubt

Seat tube motors, not magic motors.
jmdirt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,135
Joined: 06 Dec 2013 17:33

Re:

15 Dec 2017 18:59

jmdirt wrote:So does the CF news weaken the motor argument? If motors are as 'advanced' as some people are asserting why would he need to OD on chemicals?

Before you even go there, IMO motors exist and have been used in the platoon, they just aren't as magical as many profess (read upthread for my too many opinions:)).


Yes and no, in my view. Yes, it weakens the arguments regarding of the prevalence of motors and the notions of how much riders may be relying on them. No, it doesn't explain some of the fairly obvious uses of motors we've seen which don't seem to have any other explanation.

But I've always thought this thread was irrational and paranoid more than it was on-point, so it may just be confirmation bias on my part. Obviously motors are a thing. Seeing them every time someone puts in a hard acceleration or has a mechanical starts to look dumb.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,090
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests

Back to top