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Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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23 Feb 2017 21:26

Basically, the neutral service messed up and Valv.Piti won the race.

Tell me, whats suspicious about it?
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User avatar Valv.Piti
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Re:

23 Feb 2017 23:41

Valv.Piti wrote:Basically, the neutral service messed up and Valv.Piti won the race.

Tell me, whats suspicious about it?


It appears as if the neutral support is looking at the wheel as if there's something unusual about it, and Evans doesn't seem to be making a stink of it at the time. Heck, if I were Evans I would've been pissed and got of the bike and fixed it myself.
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Re: Re:

23 Feb 2017 23:46

With the way cycling has been for the last few decades, I give zero benefit of the doubt to the riders, teams, organizers, doping agencies or federations. None. I have lost faith in the system. I will never own a fancy bike again nor pin on a racing number. The only way to fix the mess is to put the Japanese in charge of everything.
Huapango
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Re:

24 Feb 2017 00:23

sniper wrote:How dodgy is this (honest question) from Cadel Evans 2009 Giro.
Neutral service car and a motor are unable to change his wheel.

The story: http://www.velonews.com/2009/09/news/evans-puncture-probably-cost-me-the-win-of-the-vuelta_97851

The footage from different angles:

1. "this is a real slow wheel change, one of the slowest i've ever seen"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl_eqDVRnJc

2. some not so convincing commentary from evans himself post-race:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIvaNrQpCKw

3. cyclocosmos commentray --> 2m40sec: "one of the most shambolic wheel changes ever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1l5zmp6B8


From slowing down to new bike took just under a minute. In what world is this suspicious? Flubbing a rear wheel change is exceedingly easy, especially under pressure and if something is even slightly off, like the drops are 0.2 mm too narrow for the replacement wheel. Fumble. Understand the problem. Back off the quick release. Oops too much. Oh, the replacement bike is here!

John Swanson
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24 Feb 2017 12:01

No, sure, fair points John. Iinm Lotto were using campagnolo in 09 and Shimano was sponsoring the neutral service wagon. Maybe that was part of the problem.
sniper
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25 Feb 2017 12:46

Evans change in the Vuelta 09 on its own may not look suspiscious but in my opinion it does in combination with the earlier posted 2011 changes.
They where posted allready here:
viewtopic.php?p=2053600#p2053600
He wins stage 4 after a bike change and he wins tour with his performance after his bike change on stage 19.
There is better footage of stage 19 here from 51:15:
https://youtu.be/XpAizXzkTDI?t=51m16s
The first time he stops he does not want the help from the neutral service car and the second time he does not seem to want help from the neutral service bike. The third time he stops the car is there and he changes bike.

In this one page thread about stage 19 you can read that back then some posters thought that he was faking a mechanical.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/pro-cycling-tour-de-france/cadels-bike-change-today-256365.html
Some interesting stuff in there including not very convincing explanations for the mechanical from Evans and his mechanic.

In stage 14 Evans also changed his bike, this time after only 3 km according to this race report:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1295/Tour-De-France/article/detail/1293542/2011/07/16/Herbeleef-hoe-Vanendert-er-subtiel-vanonder-muisde.dhtml
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Re: Re:

25 Feb 2017 13:17

MarkvW wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
Semper Fidelis wrote:How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?


No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?


Seems quite odd.


It was a rhetorical question. Nobody ever changed a bike unless it was broken. Stopping to change a bike takes what? 30 seconds? At 40 km/hr that puts you ~350 meters behind and in the wind. Why on earth would you do that voluntarily? These days some guys are changing bikes more often than they change gears. It's really weird.

John Swanson


I wouldn't say nobody. I remember a lot of comment about Heras doing it when he won the Vuelta (can't remember which year). The fact that he was doing it excited comment, though, is interesting.


I would not rule out that Heras was using a motor himself to win those Vueltas. For example Thomas Voeckler has been doing suspiscious bike changes his entire career. Lets look at the 2004 tour:
http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf2004.html
stage 12:
Voeckler, like Mayo and Hamilton before him, has changed his bike. I assume it's for a lighter climbing bike.
stage 13:
Thomas Voeckler has asked for another bike and is up and almost back in the peloton.
stage 15:
Thomas Voeckler did another one of those mysterious bike changes. The Tour de France site says that Voeckler worries that the glue that holds his tubular tires onto the rims has softened on the long descents. He doesn't want to roll a tire and crash.


The timing of his changes are very suspiscous if you look at the stage profiles.
He surprised everyone by holding on to the yellow jersey for ten days and over the pyrenees as he was riding uphill with the best climbers.
The glue excuse is not the most convincing in my opinion.

Hamilton is also mentioned in the race report to have done a couple of bike changes, perhaps he was the right expert for the 60 minutes show after all.
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Re: Re:

25 Feb 2017 19:00

Tienus wrote:
MarkvW wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
Semper Fidelis wrote:How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?


No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?


Seems quite odd.


It was a rhetorical question. Nobody ever changed a bike unless it was broken. Stopping to change a bike takes what? 30 seconds? At 40 km/hr that puts you ~350 meters behind and in the wind. Why on earth would you do that voluntarily? These days some guys are changing bikes more often than they change gears. It's really weird.

John Swanson


I wouldn't say nobody. I remember a lot of comment about Heras doing it when he won the Vuelta (can't remember which year). The fact that he was doing it excited comment, though, is interesting.


I would not rule out that Heras was using a motor himself to win those Vueltas. For example Thomas Voeckler has been doing suspiscious bike changes his entire career. Lets look at the 2004 tour:
http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf2004.html
stage 12:
Voeckler, like Mayo and Hamilton before him, has changed his bike. I assume it's for a lighter climbing bike.
stage 13:
Thomas Voeckler has asked for another bike and is up and almost back in the peloton.
stage 15:
Thomas Voeckler did another one of those mysterious bike changes. The Tour de France site says that Voeckler worries that the glue that holds his tubular tires onto the rims has softened on the long descents. He doesn't want to roll a tire and crash.


The timing of his changes are very suspiscous if you look at the stage profiles.
He surprised everyone by holding on to the yellow jersey for ten days and over the pyrenees as he was riding uphill with the best climbers.
The glue excuse is not the most convincing in my opinion.

Hamilton is also mentioned in the race report to have done a couple of bike changes, perhaps he was the right expert for the 60 minutes show after all.

I think the glue excuse is quite a good one. Its a possibility so why take the chance - at least he isnt faking a mechanical
noddy69
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03 Mar 2017 13:39

what's wrong with wiggo's bike here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVBoPY6wfrc
sniper
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Re:

03 Mar 2017 13:46

sniper wrote:what's wrong with wiggo's bike here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVBoPY6wfrc


I think he's having issues with a BB mounted brake.
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05 Mar 2017 19:44

Thanks KB, false alarm then.
Last edited by sniper on 05 Mar 2017 20:06, edited 1 time in total.
sniper
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05 Mar 2017 20:06

@festinagirl is as reliable&informed as a source can be.
Il Cobra‏ @IlCobra21 5h5 hours ago
@danroan Fantastic job? That's the face of a 19 year old girl being thrown under the bus to prove their tablet thing works....

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 3m3 minutes ago
@IlCobra21 @EwonSprokler @danroan and the tablet doesn't work, not at all, know for a fact

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 22m22 minutes ago
@EwonSprokler @mocycling @ulif of course there's 1 glaring reason why the ineffective tablet is preferred to methods that might be effective
https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/838475158113370123
sniper
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Re:

05 Mar 2017 22:04

sniper wrote:@festinagirl is as reliable&informed as a source can be.
Il Cobra‏ @IlCobra21 5h5 hours ago
@danroan Fantastic job? That's the face of a 19 year old girl being thrown under the bus to prove their tablet thing works....

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 3m3 minutes ago
@IlCobra21 @EwonSprokler @danroan and the tablet doesn't work, not at all, know for a fact

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 22m22 minutes ago
@EwonSprokler @mocycling @ulif of course there's 1 glaring reason why the ineffective tablet is preferred to methods that might be effective
https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/838475158113370123


To me this is total "duh" material. It's the digital equivalent of using an old school compass to detect a magnet. Except that every derailleur of an electronic shifting bike is loaded with them. You know. At the bottom bracket and rear hub...

John Swanson
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05 Mar 2017 23:14

Indeed, I posted this up mainly as a means to confirm what you had said about it earlier in the thread.
sniper
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06 Mar 2017 14:07

I guess Bardet didn't have a motor yesterday since he was hanging on to a car.
Ditto Nibali that time he got thrown off the Vuelta.
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Re:

06 Mar 2017 15:05

sniper wrote:@festinagirl is as reliable&informed as a source can be.
Il Cobra‏ @IlCobra21 5h5 hours ago
@danroan Fantastic job? That's the face of a 19 year old girl being thrown under the bus to prove their tablet thing works....

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 3m3 minutes ago
@IlCobra21 @EwonSprokler @danroan and the tablet doesn't work, not at all, know for a fact

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 22m22 minutes ago
@EwonSprokler @mocycling @ulif of course there's 1 glaring reason why the ineffective tablet is preferred to methods that might be effective
https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/838475158113370123
Well if someone on Twitter knows it for a 'fact' it must be true...
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09 Mar 2017 13:56

I doesn't look as suspicious but maybe some. That wheel after the Sky rider Gianni Moscon crash in the TTT. It just kept spinning. I haven't checked my wheel to see if it rolls so easily without stop. Maybe I should check it someday.

Comments from better experts than me please?

Thanks.
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Re:

09 Mar 2017 15:50

Escarabajo wrote:I doesn't look as suspicious but maybe some. That wheel after the Sky rider Gianni Moscon crash in the TTT. It just kept spinning. I haven't checked my wheel to see if it rolls so easily without stop. Maybe I should check it someday.

Comments from better experts than me please?

Thanks.


Are you talking about the rear wheel? If so nothing looked strange about it to me
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09 Mar 2017 16:08

Do you have a link?
sniper
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09 Mar 2017 16:32

I think it's this crash. Doesn't really look out of the ordinary to me, I would be surprised if there would be much more friction.
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