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Moto-fraud: first rider caught

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Tonton, Pricey_sky, King Boonen

14 Jun 2017 07:59

@ebandit, certainly some fair points.

as to those disgruntled employees.
Could Varjas be one?
But sure, if it's as widespread as me and a few others think it is, then yes, you'd probably expect at least one or two additional leaks in the course of time.
i think it's fair to say that either 'we' are wrong in claiming it is widespread, or the omerta is simply very very strong on this.
sniper
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14 Jun 2017 11:55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFxHD0P51-I

Ventoux 2013, the speed of Froome going around that bend in comparision to the other cyclists is mental. Can't pedal fast enough.
ontheroad
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Re:

14 Jun 2017 13:54

ontheroad wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFxHD0P51-I

Ventoux 2013, the speed of Froome going around that bend in comparision to the other cyclists is mental. Can't pedal fast enough.



Ha ha, never seen that before... "Froomey" had great control to keep upright at that speed...

"she can't take anymore Dave" :lol:
deeno1975
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14 Jun 2017 14:21

The interesting part is how the bike stays perfectly straight during his attack. Similar to Cancellara in the 2010 Tour of Flanders.
DanielSong39
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14 Jun 2017 15:17

Watching Froome ride a bike post 2011 reminds me very much of when I was a kid and my dad used to take me out on his tandem. The pedals would be driving my little legs rather than the other way round. My protests to him to stop pedaling so fast didn't tend to work and eventually I would have to concede defeat and cling on legs akimbo, trying to avoid my shins getting whacked
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Re:

14 Jun 2017 15:21

@eyeballsout, nice one.

DanielSong39 wrote:The interesting part is how the bike stays perfectly straight during his attack. Similar to Cancellara in the 2010 Tour of Flanders.


Sky crew must have pissed themselves laughing:

"Pete Kennaugh was laughing at the end of the stage," said Kerrison. "He said the way Chris rode that climb was exactly what we do in training every second day. Our training is much more than just doing intervals at a constant pace for a set amount of time; [some of it] is about being able to handle changes of pace – to go from, say, 350 watts to 650 watts for a few seconds to attack and get a gap on a rider who is trying to follow, then come back down to 350 watts."

Kerrison's term for this kind of interval training is spiked efforts, "where we make an effort then come back to a very high but sustainable pace. The energy systems have to have the ability to produce that power, which will produce a load of lactate in the muscle, because you are well above anaerobic threshold [the point at which the body is producing more than it can handle of the lactate which is the main limiting factor in intense efforts] – then come down to a very high level, just sub-threshold, and clean out the lactate, the effects of the attack. Pretty much all our training is based on that. The guys in the team who train that way look at [Froome's attack] and think, 'He's rehearsed that way of riding, three or four times a week for the last two years'."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/15/team-sky-chris-froome-tour-de-france
sniper
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

14 Jun 2017 16:41

Irondan wrote:
sniper wrote:
thehog wrote:Take a look at Froome's right hand in this video compared to the other riders and his left hand.

Power assisted motor? :o

https://twitter.com/trudgin/status/873905662119620621

I've seen Froome do it in other races too, and always whilst looking at his computer.

Would love to hear Jeroen Swart's explanation :lol:

I guess I would too.. @Jeroen?


I think it's a Shimano feature to control the Garmin screen.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/shimano-dura-ace-di2-levers-now-control-bike-computers/

That or some tic when he's on the limit.

It certainly isn't a motor switch. Otherwise the battery was flat.
Jeroen Swart
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

14 Jun 2017 16:48

red_flanders wrote:
sniper wrote:
And "massive risk"? Not really.
Last time I checked there's about 0.001 percent chance of getting caught with a motor.

*Edited by King Boonen: Please don't imply that riders have been caught using motors when they haven't.


Please also don't imply you have any idea what the risk of getting caught with a motor is, or that it has much to do with my post. My post said it would be hard to imagine some dial on the brake hood, as part of a motor, would be massively risky since it would be obvious to anyone looking at the bike.

I'll wager whatever motors have existed in the peloton don't have any glaringly obvious controls.


I love how Sniper pulls these "facts" out of thin air. He's never been one to let the truth get in his way.
Jeroen Swart
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

14 Jun 2017 17:05

Jeroen Swart wrote:
Irondan wrote:
sniper wrote:
thehog wrote:Take a look at Froome's right hand in this video compared to the other riders and his left hand.

Power assisted motor? :o

https://twitter.com/trudgin/status/873905662119620621

I've seen Froome do it in other races too, and always whilst looking at his computer.

Would love to hear Jeroen Swart's explanation :lol:

I guess I would too.. @Jeroen?


I think it's a Shimano feature to control the Garmin screen.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/shimano-dura-ace-di2-levers-now-control-bike-computers/

That or some tic when he's on the limit.

It certainly isn't a motor switch. Otherwise the battery was flat.

No doubt.. :D

I buy that, thanks for the response!
Darryl Webster wrote:
"Nothing seems to blind peeps as much as patriotism does it!"
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

14 Jun 2017 17:55

Jeroen Swart wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
sniper wrote:
And "massive risk"? Not really.
Last time I checked there's about 0.001 percent chance of getting caught with a motor.

*Edited by King Boonen: Please don't imply that riders have been caught using motors when they haven't.


Please also don't imply you have any idea what the risk of getting caught with a motor is, or that it has much to do with my post. My post said it would be hard to imagine some dial on the brake hood, as part of a motor, would be massively risky since it would be obvious to anyone looking at the bike.

I'll wager whatever motors have existed in the peloton don't have any glaringly obvious controls.


I love how Sniper pulls these "facts" out of thin air. He's never been one to let the truth get in his way.

Truth is motors are out there.
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

14 Jun 2017 17:58

Jeroen Swart wrote:
Irondan wrote:
sniper wrote:
thehog wrote:Take a look at Froome's right hand in this video compared to the other riders and his left hand.

Power assisted motor? :o

https://twitter.com/trudgin/status/873905662119620621

I've seen Froome do it in other races too, and always whilst looking at his computer.

Would love to hear Jeroen Swart's explanation :lol:

I guess I would too.. @Jeroen?


I think it's a Shimano feature to control the Garmin screen.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/shimano-dura-ace-di2-levers-now-control-bike-computers/

That or some tic when he's on the limit.

It certainly isn't a motor switch. Otherwise the battery was flat.

His Garmin must have been stuck on a 404 screen then. I did not realize they had any control button on the side though. :rolleyes:
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14 Jun 2017 20:37

Yeah thanks for the response jeroen.
As for pulling facts out of thin air, your "just lost the fat" springs to mind.
Meanwhile on twitter froomes ventoux 2013 seated 'accelleration' is the running joke of the day. Every day. Any thoughts on that? A hoax maybe?
Last edited by sniper on 14 Jun 2017 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
sniper
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Re:

14 Jun 2017 20:38

sniper wrote:Meanwhile on twitter froomes ventoux 2013 seated 'accelleration' is the running joke of the day. Every day.

Meaning?
kingjr
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14 Jun 2017 23:32

i still encourage everyone to watch the 2013 ax-3 domaines stage with motors in mind. it's so glaringly obvious which two riders have motors.
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

14 Jun 2017 23:51

sniper wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
sniper wrote:
And "massive risk"? Not really.
Last time I checked there's about 0.001 percent chance of getting caught with a motor.

*Edited by King Boonen: Please don't imply that riders have been caught using motors when they haven't.


Please also don't imply you have any idea what the risk of getting caught with a motor is, or that it has much to do with my post. My post said it would be hard to imagine some dial on the brake hood, as part of a motor, would be massively risky since it would be obvious to anyone looking at the bike.

The risk of getting caught is negligible. If you have evidence to the contrary, do share it.


I didn't say having a motor was massively risky, if you read, you can see that I make the point about some obvious external dial. Seems fairly straightforward logic to follow if one is so inclined.

sniper wrote:
red_flanders wrote:I'll wager whatever motors have existed in the peloton don't have any glaringly obvious controls.

that's you overestimating the respect pro-riders have for the average cycling fan.


No, it's me stating the obvious about other riders and race officials.
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

15 Jun 2017 08:43

red_flanders wrote:
sniper wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
sniper wrote:
And "massive risk"? Not really.
Last time I checked there's about 0.001 percent chance of getting caught with a motor.

*Edited by King Boonen: Please don't imply that riders have been caught using motors when they haven't.


Please also don't imply you have any idea what the risk of getting caught with a motor is, or that it has much to do with my post. My post said it would be hard to imagine some dial on the brake hood, as part of a motor, would be massively risky since it would be obvious to anyone looking at the bike.

The risk of getting caught is negligible. If you have evidence to the contrary, do share it.


I didn't say having a motor was massively risky, if you read, you can see that I make the point about some obvious external dial. Seems fairly straightforward logic to follow if one is so inclined.

sniper wrote:
red_flanders wrote:I'll wager whatever motors have existed in the peloton don't have any glaringly obvious controls.

that's you overestimating the respect pro-riders have for the average cycling fan.


No, it's me stating the obvious about other riders and race officials.


I'm just saying, even if something is glaringly obvious, in procycling it rarely leads to action let alone sanctions.

Froome glaringly obviously did not go from donkey to racehorse on marginal gains or grey area drugs.
He glaringly obviously did not have Bilharzia or asthma (let alone both at the same time).
He glaringly obviously faked the 2007 Fax.
He glaringly obviously used a motor on the Ventoux.

Now you sort of seem to be arguing that it cannot be a motor control he's using in that clip because it would be too obvious? That doesn't fly.
sniper
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15 Jun 2017 08:46

...we know motors are available use would turn ANYONE into a winner but what would be
required to get away with motor use?

a silent motor................unless many riders had such as soon as a motor was heard,,,,,***!*

a hidden system..........we know this is possible

a small number of team members in the know including one well paid trusted mech....

a rider who could stay calm under pressure ....in accident not flap allowing retrieval of bike
by team staff

opportunity to switch out bike mid stage and swap back before finish where there would be more chance of detection

for these reasons i think that motors will have only been used occasionally at key moments.......

Mark L
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15 Jun 2017 08:56

why would it turn ANYONE into a winner?
if one is using it, others are now using it too.
that's the law of the peloton.

the fascinating question imo is how UCI, teams, and race organizers are/have been controlling the situation.
sniper
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15 Jun 2017 11:23

sniper wrote:why would it turn ANYONE into a winner?
'cos even i would be 1st to the top of the biggest col.............heck! i would even have time
to stop at the road side for an ice cream......................

as sniper points out UCI collusion would help.................

and having ASO etc on board.............not as though ASO would favour any team/riders above
others....................would they?

Mark L
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Re:

15 Jun 2017 12:00

ebandit wrote:
sniper wrote:why would it turn ANYONE into a winner?
'cos even i would be 1st to the top of the biggest col.............heck! i would even have time
to stop at the road side for an ice cream......................

As Michelle would say, you're "not fully" understanding the issue. ;)
Let me spell it out:
If you are using a motor, but others are using one, too, then there is no guarantee that the motor will turn you into a winner.
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