Log in:  

Register

Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

07 Sep 2017 06:33

Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?


These scanners where operated by the UCI from the back of a motorcycle. Riders could see when they where being used. Like the ipad it was looking like a pr show from the UCI. For example the scanning was done twice on live tv just before Cummings took off.
Tienus
Member
 
Posts: 555
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 18:15

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

07 Sep 2017 06:41

ngent41 wrote:new orbea ebike out with a pretty stealthy looking hub motor...

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/orbea-gain-e-bikes-dont-look-like-e-bikes-50761/


Looking at it on the Orbea site it's not very stealthy, but looking at the price point it shouldn't be all that small and stealthy looking. Any hub motor that fits inside of a regular sized and thus undetectable will be at a much higher price point.
This is Cocaine...This is Chloroform...In short we ride on Dynamite!
User avatar StryderHells
Member
 
Posts: 1,582
Joined: 10 Oct 2015 16:03
Location: Melbourne-ish

07 Sep 2017 06:52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XBIjSCrAnk&feature=youtu.be

Wiggins:
I'm sure its happened in the past.

I can understand why some people would dope with whats to be gained from it.
But to stick a motor in your bike I don't understand really.



Cancellara like Cookson does not want to answer questions until the reasoned decission comes out.
One and a half years after Femke got sanctioned we are still waiting for it!
Tienus
Member
 
Posts: 555
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 18:15

Re: Motor doping thread

07 Sep 2017 09:48

I don't know much about the Cervélo T5GB bikes apart from they look like a modified Cervélo P3 TT frame. However the only thing i'll add regarding the possibility of adding motors, is Mercedes F1, Williams F1, Red Bull F1 and Cambridge Uni all worked on this frame and developed the wheels and did this very publicly. You're talking about a huge amount of reputation on the line for very little financial reward compared to what their day-to-day work in F1 & Education brings in considering these bikes will be watched by billions in the Olympics. As we see on track regularly, when crashes happen wheels disintegrate, frames snap open, wheels get ripped out, cranks snap, chains snap. There's a lot of very simple things that regularly go wrong track racing that could easily expose a motor and a battery and wires and there's nowhere to hide in a velodrome.
samhocking
Member
 
Posts: 1,057
Joined: 13 Mar 2013 22:44

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

07 Sep 2017 10:09

ScienceIsCool wrote:
samhocking wrote:OK, so are youre now basically describing a Bedini-type motor, but one with usable torque to drive a rider and wheel, ie a high torque pulsed rotational wheel similar to the one Varjas describes, but the specialist permanent magnets in the rim Varjas claims he uses are replaced with electromagnets driven by a, another battery too? I've not really looked much into Bedini wheels, certainly not in the context of it being like a starter motor in a car anyway.


Okay. So physics isn't currently your thing, but you are obviously enthusiastic. I just have to say that you might want to brush up on this. Lots of places to start, like Wikipedia as an obvious one. My most sincere recommendation, though, is the Feynman series of lectures which have recently become available online for free. You obviously have a good mind and a grasp for the fundamentals, but I'm sorry. Your arguments just don't stack up. With a bit of a nudge, you could be a force to be reckoned with.

John Swanson


Not really wanting to be a force to be reckoned with, I get that in my day job thanks. Just trying to work out how the principle of a starter motor or I guess simply a brushless dc motor with or without permanent magnets can possible work in a non-detectable bike wheel/frame motor capable of delivering 30w to 3000w of power as Varjas claims, when all you have is 4 little cylinders in the area next to the rim about 30mm long with a diameter of maybe 10mm in the seat stays and perhaps 20mm in chainstays? You think even 100w can be found in such a small volume to put everything? I don't know, i'm asking for proof it can be. As far as i'm concerned Varjas seems to describes a brushless DC motor and that's as far as he gets which I can see you might get 30-50w from the stays and rim with a normal-looking spoked wheel seen in peloton.
samhocking
Member
 
Posts: 1,057
Joined: 13 Mar 2013 22:44

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 11:33

jmdirt wrote:
Huapango wrote:
jmdirt wrote:I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.


I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!


Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,117
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 12:20

Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
samhocking wrote:I make concrete for a living, was a computer programmer for 10 years before that. Raced bikes for 30 years and make an annual pilgrimage to a Grand Tour or World Champs every other year for the last 35. You're deluded if you think I would do all this under my real name and not a pseudonym if paid to write anything here. You can find me here on facebook, on youtube on twitter blardyblah all under my birth name. Says a lot that even my presence here results in you thinking i'm paid by Sky to not believe you, but then this whole clinic is essentially built on conspiracy, so perhaps should be assumed lol.

Here's me out on my bike in 1988/9 6th from the left.


The delusion is believing pros are not using motors. A French TV station is not going to waste scarce resources chasing shadows. They may have had to cut a lot of the information out due to lawyers, but you can sure the producers know that motor use is going on. That the French police were getting involved again is proof that it is going on. Again no one is going to waste time and valuable resources chasing shadows. It is only a matter of time till this comes out, it always does.

Your arguments against motors is based on Varjas, not the evidence presented. He is merely the messenger an you keep shooting at him. Try looking at the evidence. If Froome is not using a motor then his racing style is one never witnessed before and he is a cycling pharmacy where the drugs kick in with the power of thought!!!!


I'll ask you again - Why would French Police be interested in motors in bikes ? It's not against the law - It seems like a misplacing of priorities by French police ?


It is against French law.

Edit: my apologies, the government will submit a report on the criminalisation of technological fraud plus an increase in the power of the French anti-doping agency in this area before December 31 2017.

That may be why Froome is winning La Vuelta because next year it will be criminalised to use motors.


So I was right - All the more reason for the French Police to more effectively deploy their resources - Let Sporting Federations deal with motor doping and WADA and it's anti-doping agencies deal with drugs.
yaco
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,181
Joined: 20 Jun 2015 17:57

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 12:23

Benotti69 wrote:
Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons


Riders were on their bikes on trainers at night in hotel rooms in the mid 90s due to risk of blood thickening from EPO and possible death in their sleep.


You are 100% correct with this post - Of course we can't be 100% certain it was their actual race bikes.
yaco
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,181
Joined: 20 Jun 2015 17:57

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 12:33

yaco wrote:So I was right - All the more reason for the French Police to more effectively deploy their resources - Let Sporting Federations deal with motor doping and WADA and it's anti-doping agencies deal with drugs.


Well you are also wrong. WADA and the UCI are not effective in dealing with cheating. In fact they enable it. We see that time and time again.

Motor doping will become illegal. The French are not going to risk damaging their biggest tourist advertisment and the delay is giving time to teams to find new ways to cheat.
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,117
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 12:35

yaco wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
Parker wrote:Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/


You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons


Riders were on their bikes on trainers at night in hotel rooms in the mid 90s due to risk of blood thickening from EPO and possible death in their sleep.


You are 100% correct with this post - Of course we can't be 100% certain it was their actual race bikes.


Sure teams went to the hassle of bringing more bikes to use in hotels rather than a race bike, because you know it is more work.
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,117
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 12:47

Benotti69 wrote:
jmdirt wrote:
Huapango wrote:
jmdirt wrote:I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.


I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!


Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!

But its not really.

In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.
jmdirt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,415
Joined: 06 Dec 2013 17:33

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 12:55

jmdirt wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
jmdirt wrote:
Huapango wrote:
jmdirt wrote:I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.


I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!


Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!

But its not really.

In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.


:cool:

Jean-Pierre Verdy, the former testing director for the French Anti-Doping Agency, said that riders have ridden motorised bikes in the Tour.

“It’s been the last three to four years when I was told about the use of the motors,” Verdy said. “And in 2014, they told me there are motors. And they told me, there’s a problem. By 2015, everyone was complaining and I said, something’s got to be done.”

Through insiders in the peloton, Verdy explained that he learned 12 riders used hidden motors in their bikes in the 2015 Tour.
User avatar thehog
Veteran
 
Posts: 20,386
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 20:00

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 13:02

jmdirt wrote:
In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.

Eh?

In 1998 we has the Festina Affair (before anyone had heard of Bassons). EPO use was no secret throughout much of the 90s. Bjarne Riis was being called Mr 60%. It was just who and to what extent that was disputed. And journalists didn't really care much until Festina forced them to.

The idea that nobody knew about doping in the 80s and 90s is just plain wrong.
Parker
Member
 
Posts: 1,242
Joined: 04 Mar 2011 01:20

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 13:28

Benotti69 wrote:
jmdirt wrote:
Huapango wrote:
jmdirt wrote:I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.


I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!


Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!


That's the thing about Varjas. I'm surprised that he has even disclosed the information that he has to date given the stakes. The $2m he received for the 10 year exclusive agreement to use motors back in 1998 could be easily proven or unproven from bank records. It just depends on how far he wants to take this. If you read between the lines it is easy to see the implications of what he is saying but there may be legal reasons that he hasn't gone full disclosure at this point.
ontheroad
Member
 
Posts: 681
Joined: 10 Oct 2012 18:04

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 14:06

ontheroad wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
jmdirt wrote:
Huapango wrote:
jmdirt wrote:I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.


I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!


Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!


That's the thing about Varjas. I'm surprised that he has even disclosed the information that he has to date given the stakes. The $2m he received for the 10 year exclusive agreement to use motors back in 1998 could be easily proven or unproven from bank records. It just depends on how far he wants to take this. If you read between the lines it is easy to see the implications of what he is saying but there may be legal reasons that he hasn't gone full disclosure at this point.



Through a friend, Varjas made an exclusive deal with a professional cyclist.

“Stefano swears he has no idea who it was. He gave us this bank record that shows that he had about $2 million at the time,” Whitaker said.



http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/there-has-been-motorised-doping-in-tour-de-france-us-tv-investigation-309193#7ZtI3FAUW2tTd765.99
User avatar thehog
Veteran
 
Posts: 20,386
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 20:00

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 14:08

Parker wrote:
jmdirt wrote:
In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.

Eh?

In 1998 we has the Festina Affair (before anyone had heard of Bassons). EPO use was no secret throughout much of the 90s. Bjarne Riis was being called Mr 60%. It was just who and to what extent that was disputed. And journalists didn't really care much until Festina forced them to.

The idea that nobody knew about doping in the 80s and 90s is just plain wrong.


The idea that nobody knew about motors in the 2010-20s is just plain wrong.

:)
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,117
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 14:12

jmdirt wrote:But its not really.

In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.


I would've thought teams would pay big sums of money for a small motor.

I would've also thought that some teams would pay big money for exclusive use of a motor.

Once a team pays for motors their is always the possibility of having to pay hush hush money.
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,117
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 14:49

ontheroad wrote:That's the thing about Varjas. I'm surprised that he has even disclosed the information that he has to date given the stakes. The $2m he received for the 10 year exclusive agreement to use motors back in 1998 could be easily proven or unproven from bank records. It just depends on how far he wants to take this. If you read between the lines it is easy to see the implications of what he is saying but there may be legal reasons that he hasn't gone full disclosure at this point.

Makes sense to me. His initial contract is up and he wants to make some money. He hasn't actually ratted anyone out, but since talking to the media people sure interested in Varjas' motors! This has given him an amazing amount of free advertising and has set his "credentials" as compared to other hidden motor manufacturers. And there a few of them!

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,469
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 16:30

ontheroad wrote:
Parker wrote:
ontheroad wrote:
Parker wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Stop focusing solely on Varjas.

But he's the sole source for this story. It's like anti-vaxxers saying 'Stop focusing on Andrew Wakefield'


No he's not. There are several other public comments made by others as referred to earlier which you continue to ignore.

Name one other person that has said that he has first hand knowledge that motors have been used in the pro peloton


Here's one for now. Former 3 time tour winner Greg Lemond:


''Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more. A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

A heavy bike doesn’t prove anything on its own but to Greg LeMond the weight difference should have set off alarm bells. In this case, sources told us, the sport’s governing body would not allow French investigators to remove the Team Sky wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced. LeMond said not enough is being done by the International Cycling Union to prevent cheating with motors.

''This is curable. This is fixable. I don’t trust it until they figure out how to take the motor out. I won’t trust any victories of the Tour de France.''

If Lemond doesn't trust any victories of the tour then that's good enough for me. I'm not going to believe some anonymous armchair fan on an internet forum with a vested interest and an affiliation to team sky over a man with his finger on the pulse who has spoken to people on the inside including the police.


Er...no, GCN have been weighing team bikes for some time now. Froome's F8 SL is right on the minimum weight limit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSw3L46B46A

In the past some Pinarello road frames have been on the chunky side in part because of aero additions.

TT bikes like Martin's are much heavier, some of the larger sizes almost 9 Kg. Lemond is taking nonsense.

What was a surprise to me was different makes of bikes of similar frame size, with the same Shimano groupsets, were often well over the minimum weight limit.
Last edited by adamfo on 07 Sep 2017 17:09, edited 1 time in total.
adamfo
Junior Member
 
Posts: 131
Joined: 04 Jan 2013 15:56

Re: Re:

07 Sep 2017 16:51

Benotti69 wrote:
yaco wrote:So I was right - All the more reason for the French Police to more effectively deploy their resources - Let Sporting Federations deal with motor doping and WADA and it's anti-doping agencies deal with drugs.


Well you are also wrong. WADA and the UCI are not effective in dealing with cheating. In fact they enable it. We see that time and time again.

Motor doping will become illegal. The French are not going to risk damaging their biggest tourist advertisment and the delay is giving time to teams to find new ways to cheat.


How strange - When I have ever posted WADA, its national agencies or UCI are doing a good job - And today 'The Clinic's poster boy in Travis Tygart had his agency USADA again deliver a lenient sanction to an American athlete - Then we have CAS in which I've been extremely critical - The fact is you 'hang your hat' on French police being involved in detecting alleged moto doping, when it's not in their brief or responsibility - I want my Police Force to wisely use their resources to keep society safe - No matter which way you box it, dice it or spin it's an inappropriate use of resources.
yaco
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,181
Joined: 20 Jun 2015 17:57

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], meat puppet and 16 guests

Back to top