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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 10:19

Freddythefrog wrote:
DanielSong39 wrote:These are the most obvious cases I've seen:

Cancellara at .........

Froome at ........

People have also suspected Floyd Landis' solo ride in the 2006 Tour. That's a tougher one since he would've needed 50-100 watts for 2+ hours; I don't think hidden motors would would have been able to produce that much juice.

So your conclusion is that if it was too much for motor/battery technology it came from inside the body of Floyd,
which you think is more likely.

Do you understand how illogical that is. Having lost the Jersey the day before, Floyd had a good night's rest and then came up with an extra 50-100 Watts for 2+ hours the next day. That concept is up there with "Tyler's phantom unborn twin" and Froome's "I just lost the fat (that cannot be seen in contemporary photos - but trust me - it was there)".


Well, plus a good amount of testo ("whiskey"), and who know what else.
As far as I know (could be wrong), Landis has never given a full, credible account of what happened that night.
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 16:10

spalco wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:
DanielSong39 wrote:These are the most obvious cases I've seen:

Cancellara at .........

Froome at ........

People have also suspected Floyd Landis' solo ride in the 2006 Tour. That's a tougher one since he would've needed 50-100 watts for 2+ hours; I don't think hidden motors would would have been able to produce that much juice.

So your conclusion is that if it was too much for motor/battery technology it came from inside the body of Floyd,
which you think is more likely.

Do you understand how illogical that is. Having lost the Jersey the day before, Floyd had a good night's rest and then came up with an extra 50-100 Watts for 2+ hours the next day. That concept is up there with "Tyler's phantom unborn twin" and Froome's "I just lost the fat (that cannot be seen in contemporary photos - but trust me - it was there)".


Well, plus a good amount of testo ("whiskey"), and who know what else.
As far as I know (could be wrong), Landis has never given a full, credible account of what happened that night.


Whatever it was, it was definitely not the stuff he was busted for (testosterone) that gave him the immediate overnight boost.
brownbobby
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 17:24

brownbobby wrote:
spalco wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:
DanielSong39 wrote:These are the most obvious cases I've seen:

Cancellara at .........

Froome at ........

People have also suspected Floyd Landis' solo ride in the 2006 Tour. That's a tougher one since he would've needed 50-100 watts for 2+ hours; I don't think hidden motors would would have been able to produce that much juice.

So your conclusion is that if it was too much for motor/battery technology it came from inside the body of Floyd,
which you think is more likely.

Do you understand how illogical that is. Having lost the Jersey the day before, Floyd had a good night's rest and then came up with an extra 50-100 Watts for 2+ hours the next day. That concept is up there with "Tyler's phantom unborn twin" and Froome's "I just lost the fat (that cannot be seen in contemporary photos - but trust me - it was there)".


Well, plus a good amount of testo ("whiskey"), and who know what else.
As far as I know (could be wrong), Landis has never given a full, credible account of what happened that night.


Whatever it was, it was definitely not the stuff he was busted for (testosterone) that gave him the immediate overnight boost.

Yep. Supposedly busted for. Has this ever been verified?
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 17:31

spalco wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:
DanielSong39 wrote:These are the most obvious cases I've seen:

Cancellara at .........

Froome at ........

People have also suspected Floyd Landis' solo ride in the 2006 Tour. That's a tougher one since he would've needed 50-100 watts for 2+ hours; I don't think hidden motors would would have been able to produce that much juice.

So your conclusion is that if it was too much for motor/battery technology it came from inside the body of Floyd,
which you think is more likely.

Do you understand how illogical that is. Having lost the Jersey the day before, Floyd had a good night's rest and then came up with an extra 50-100 Watts for 2+ hours the next day. That concept is up there with "Tyler's phantom unborn twin" and Froome's "I just lost the fat (that cannot be seen in contemporary photos - but trust me - it was there)".


Well, plus a good amount of testo ("whiskey"), and who know what else.
As far as I know (could be wrong), Landis has never given a full, credible account of what happened that night.

Exactly. there has been some pretty impressive? comebacks in the history of this sport but FL takes the cake. Gets dropped like a rock one day, goes out and gets hammered that night, then next day blows everyone away. He claims to have had what, 8 shots of Jack and few beers to chase them. lmao. How does this sport come up with the most ridiculous excuses?
When most other sports are still trying tainted supplements, we are taking our mothers meds that fell in the soup and **** like that. I wish other sports would get more creative.
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 17:43

veganrob wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
spalco wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:
DanielSong39 wrote:These are the most obvious cases I've seen:

Cancellara at .........

Froome at ........

People have also suspected Floyd Landis' solo ride in the 2006 Tour. That's a tougher one since he would've needed 50-100 watts for 2+ hours; I don't think hidden motors would would have been able to produce that much juice.

So your conclusion is that if it was too much for motor/battery technology it came from inside the body of Floyd,
which you think is more likely.

Do you understand how illogical that is. Having lost the Jersey the day before, Floyd had a good night's rest and then came up with an extra 50-100 Watts for 2+ hours the next day. That concept is up there with "Tyler's phantom unborn twin" and Froome's "I just lost the fat (that cannot be seen in contemporary photos - but trust me - it was there)".


Well, plus a good amount of testo ("whiskey"), and who know what else.
As far as I know (could be wrong), Landis has never given a full, credible account of what happened that night.


Whatever it was, it was definitely not the stuff he was busted for (testosterone) that gave him the immediate overnight boost.

Yep. Supposedly busted for. Has this ever been verified?


Not sure, it's certainly what's always cited as the reason for the failed test, but Floyd himself I think has always denied using testosterone before the test despite admitting to most other doping methods imaginable.

The overnight boost most likely from a blood bag would be my guess, so maybe one contaminated with traces of testosterone from earlier training blocks?
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 18:27

brownbobby wrote:Not sure, it's certainly what's always cited as the reason for the failed test, but Floyd himself I think has always denied using testosterone before the test despite admitting to most other doping methods imaginable.

The overnight boost most likely from a blood bag would be my guess, so maybe one contaminated with traces of testosterone from earlier training blocks?

So Hamilton Jullrich, Hincapie, Yates and loads of others were doing blood bags like Floyd - for a list of cyclists in the peloton a single doctor was servicing google Fuentes ex Kelme.

Just what do you suggest was in the blood bag Floyd used that night that the others did not have access to ?
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 18:46

Freddythefrog wrote:
brownbobby wrote:Not sure, it's certainly what's always cited as the reason for the failed test, but Floyd himself I think has always denied using testosterone before the test despite admitting to most other doping methods imaginable.

The overnight boost most likely from a blood bag would be my guess, so maybe one contaminated with traces of testosterone from earlier training blocks?

So Hamilton Jullrich, Hincapie, Yates and loads of others were doing blood bags like Floyd - for a list of cyclists in the peloton a single doctor was servicing google Fuentes ex Kelme.

Just what do you suggest was in the blood bag Floyd used that night that the others did not have access to ?


You can't do a blood bag every night, and there's no reason to believe all the other riders you mention would have done one all at the same time and so late in the race. Certainly any number of techniques could have caused the recovery that Floyd showed. Also, he was after all the strongest rider in the race by a fair margin on all the other days.

Could he have been motor-doping? I guess it's possible but it does not explain the entire ride. He gained time for far too long for it to have been the only factor. There was a curious bike change late that causes some suspicion but he'd gained a ton of time already, so it's an incomplete explanation...at best.
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31 Dec 2017 19:09

Floyd took EPO and HGH for recovery that night. He didn't take testosterone. He didn't do a bag. But he did take some EPO.
Digger
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 19:26

Freddythefrog wrote:
brownbobby wrote:Not sure, it's certainly what's always cited as the reason for the failed test, but Floyd himself I think has always denied using testosterone before the test despite admitting to most other doping methods imaginable.

The overnight boost most likely from a blood bag would be my guess, so maybe one contaminated with traces of testosterone from earlier training blocks?

So Hamilton Jullrich, Hincapie, Yates and loads of others were doing blood bags like Floyd - for a list of cyclists in the peloton a single doctor was servicing google Fuentes ex Kelme.

Just what do you suggest was in the blood bag Floyd used that night that the others did not have access to ?


As I stated, just guessing at a blood bag. What I'm not guessing at is the fact that testosterone wasn't behind the superhuman performance on the day.
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Re:

31 Dec 2017 23:29

Digger wrote:Floyd took EPO and HGH for recovery that night. He didn't take testosterone. He didn't do a bag. But he did take some EPO.


Sounds entirely plausible.
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2017 23:33

brownbobby wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:
brownbobby wrote:Not sure, it's certainly what's always cited as the reason for the failed test, but Floyd himself I think has always denied using testosterone before the test despite admitting to most other doping methods imaginable.

The overnight boost most likely from a blood bag would be my guess, so maybe one contaminated with traces of testosterone from earlier training blocks?

So Hamilton Jullrich, Hincapie, Yates and loads of others were doing blood bags like Floyd - for a list of cyclists in the peloton a single doctor was servicing google Fuentes ex Kelme.

Just what do you suggest was in the blood bag Floyd used that night that the others did not have access to ?


As I stated, just guessing at a blood bag. What I'm not guessing at is the fact that testosterone wasn't behind the superhuman performance on the day.


Well, Floyd claims he didn't do testosterone that day, so maybe not. It is however well documented by riders that testosterone is a powerful recovery drug.
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01 Jan 2018 00:17

Floyd had a thousand sticky bottles that day, so he was motorized, but not in the way you people are thinking. Go back and check threads about it, and you'll see bottle counts and everything. I also remember reading in the clinic a few years ago about speculative interpretation of why Floyd had testosterone. A theory being discussed then was that the body doesn't like newly infused blood as much as the regular kind. The idea is, it can take 24 hours and maybe some drugs to help it start to work.

It is certainly a performance of interest for this topic, I don't mean to dismiss that completely. However, it is critical to examine it in full context.
Teddy Boom
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2018 08:30

red_flanders wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:
brownbobby wrote:Not sure, it's certainly what's always cited as the reason for the failed test, but Floyd himself I think has always denied using testosterone before the test despite admitting to most other doping methods imaginable.

The overnight boost most likely from a blood bag would be my guess, so maybe one contaminated with traces of testosterone from earlier training blocks?

So Hamilton Jullrich, Hincapie, Yates and loads of others were doing blood bags like Floyd - for a list of cyclists in the peloton a single doctor was servicing google Fuentes ex Kelme.

Just what do you suggest was in the blood bag Floyd used that night that the others did not have access to ?


As I stated, just guessing at a blood bag. What I'm not guessing at is the fact that testosterone wasn't behind the superhuman performance on the day.


Well, Floyd claims he didn't do testosterone that day, so maybe not. It is however well documented by riders that testosterone is a powerful recovery drug.


Indeed it is, but more part of an overall long term programme is my understanding, not a one off shot for instant benefits.

On the motor theory, as I recall that ride it wasn't about sudden incredible surges, he was just super strong consistently throughout the stage, almost from start to finish. I dont recall the bike change, but if it was towards the end of the stage then again as I recall the only time he showed any signs of slowing down was on the last climb of Joux Plain, where the almost 10 minute lead he'd built was cut to 5 or 6 minutes.

So, seemed to fit the profile for traditional blood doping rather than motors. To my eyes at least.
brownbobby
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2018 11:22

red_flanders wrote:You can't do a blood bag every night, and there's no reason to believe all the other riders you mention would have done one all at the same time and so late in the race. Certainly any number of techniques could have caused the recovery that Floyd showed. Also, he was after all the strongest rider in the race by a fair margin on all the other days.

Could he have been motor-doping? I guess it's possible but it does not explain the entire ride. He gained time for far too long for it to have been the only factor. There was a curious bike change late that causes some suspicion but he'd gained a ton of time already, so it's an incomplete explanation...at best.

Also, transfusions don't quite work like that. When stored, the red blood cells lose some of their ability to bond oxygen. It takes about a day after transfusion before they recover their full ability. There will also be some dead cells that the body will need to process and eliminate.

That's why the tradition has been to take a blood bag on the rest days so that you have a day to recover.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2018 11:47

ScienceIsCool wrote:
red_flanders wrote:You can't do a blood bag every night, and there's no reason to believe all the other riders you mention would have done one all at the same time and so late in the race. Certainly any number of techniques could have caused the recovery that Floyd showed. Also, he was after all the strongest rider in the race by a fair margin on all the other days.

Could he have been motor-doping? I guess it's possible but it does not explain the entire ride. He gained time for far too long for it to have been the only factor. There was a curious bike change late that causes some suspicion but he'd gained a ton of time already, so it's an incomplete explanation...at best.

Also, transfusions don't quite work like that. When stored, the red blood cells lose some of their ability to bond oxygen. It takes about a day after transfusion before they recover their full ability. There will also be some dead cells that the body will need to process and eliminate.

That's why the tradition has been to take a blood bag on the rest days so that you have a day to recover.

John Swanson


Interesting and makes sense. So what would the effect be the day immediately after transfusion, positive, negative or neutral?
Obviously Floyd had the mother of all bad days the day before the performance and stage in question.
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2018 13:27

brownbobby wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
Freddythefrog wrote:
brownbobby wrote:Not sure, it's certainly what's always cited as the reason for the failed test, but Floyd himself I think has always denied using testosterone before the test despite admitting to most other doping methods imaginable.

The overnight boost most likely from a blood bag would be my guess, so maybe one contaminated with traces of testosterone from earlier training blocks?

So Hamilton Jullrich, Hincapie, Yates and loads of others were doing blood bags like Floyd - for a list of cyclists in the peloton a single doctor was servicing google Fuentes ex Kelme.

Just what do you suggest was in the blood bag Floyd used that night that the others did not have access to ?


As I stated, just guessing at a blood bag. What I'm not guessing at is the fact that testosterone wasn't behind the superhuman performance on the day.


Well, Floyd claims he didn't do testosterone that day, so maybe not. It is however well documented by riders that testosterone is a powerful recovery drug.


Indeed it is, but more part of an overall long term programme is my understanding, not a one off shot for instant benefits.

On the motor theory, as I recall that ride it wasn't about sudden incredible surges, he was just super strong consistently throughout the stage, almost from start to finish. I dont recall the bike change, but if it was towards the end of the stage then again as I recall the only time he showed any signs of slowing down was on the last climb of Joux Plain, where the almost 10 minute lead he'd built was cut to 5 or 6 minutes.

So, seemed to fit the profile for traditional blood doping rather than motors. To my eyes at least.


Landis's performance that day has been over-stated - His 6 minute stage win was more a case of the three other GC teams being T-Mobile, Caisse D'Epargne and CSC bickering between themselves over who should lead the peleton - And it was a strange TDF when they allowed an outside chance in Pereiro to gain 30 minutes in stage - Undoubtedly Landis was on something as were most of the others - But his performance was magnified by squabbles in the peleton.
Last edited by yaco on 01 Jan 2018 15:56, edited 1 time in total.
yaco
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2018 13:39

brownbobby wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
red_flanders wrote:You can't do a blood bag every night, and there's no reason to believe all the other riders you mention would have done one all at the same time and so late in the race. Certainly any number of techniques could have caused the recovery that Floyd showed. Also, he was after all the strongest rider in the race by a fair margin on all the other days.

Could he have been motor-doping? I guess it's possible but it does not explain the entire ride. He gained time for far too long for it to have been the only factor. There was a curious bike change late that causes some suspicion but he'd gained a ton of time already, so it's an incomplete explanation...at best.

Also, transfusions don't quite work like that. When stored, the red blood cells lose some of their ability to bond oxygen. It takes about a day after transfusion before they recover their full ability. There will also be some dead cells that the body will need to process and eliminate.

That's why the tradition has been to take a blood bag on the rest days so that you have a day to recover.

John Swanson


Interesting and makes sense. So what would the effect be the day immediately after transfusion, positive, negative or neutral?
Obviously Floyd had the mother of all bad days the day before the performance and stage in question.


My understanding is that it's negative, because your blood is diluted with the transfused blood that hasn't "woken up" yet.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2018 18:15

T-Mobile and CSC played chicken in an attempt to put time in on Pereiro, gambling that Landis would pay for his earlier effort and lose minutes on the Joux-Plain. The dice came up snake eyes.

Landis' performance was still other-worldly.

As for the motor doping possibilities, known concealed motors at the time would only be able to generate ~50-100 watts over 15-30 minutes so Landis would've had to do a lot on his (drug-aided) own.

FYI, Pereiro was also doped and was caught but got off scot-free.
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2018 18:29

ScienceIsCool wrote:
red_flanders wrote:You can't do a blood bag every night, and there's no reason to believe all the other riders you mention would have done one all at the same time and so late in the race. Certainly any number of techniques could have caused the recovery that Floyd showed. Also, he was after all the strongest rider in the race by a fair margin on all the other days.

Could he have been motor-doping? I guess it's possible but it does not explain the entire ride. He gained time for far too long for it to have been the only factor. There was a curious bike change late that causes some suspicion but he'd gained a ton of time already, so it's an incomplete explanation...at best.

Also, transfusions don't quite work like that. When stored, the red blood cells lose some of their ability to bond oxygen. It takes about a day after transfusion before they recover their full ability. There will also be some dead cells that the body will need to process and eliminate.

That's why the tradition has been to take a blood bag on the rest days so that you have a day to recover.

John Swanson


Which probably why Froome was down on Stage 17 and backup on Stage 18 two days after the rest day.
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Re: Re:

02 Jan 2018 03:20

thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
red_flanders wrote:You can't do a blood bag every night, and there's no reason to believe all the other riders you mention would have done one all at the same time and so late in the race. Certainly any number of techniques could have caused the recovery that Floyd showed. Also, he was after all the strongest rider in the race by a fair margin on all the other days.

Could he have been motor-doping? I guess it's possible but it does not explain the entire ride. He gained time for far too long for it to have been the only factor. There was a curious bike change late that causes some suspicion but he'd gained a ton of time already, so it's an incomplete explanation...at best.

Also, transfusions don't quite work like that. When stored, the red blood cells lose some of their ability to bond oxygen. It takes about a day after transfusion before they recover their full ability. There will also be some dead cells that the body will need to process and eliminate.

That's why the tradition has been to take a blood bag on the rest days so that you have a day to recover.

John Swanson


Which probably why Froome was down on Stage 17 and backup on Stage 18 two days after the rest day.


That doesn't make much sense in light of all the post-rest-day performances and recoveries we've seen over the years. I think the point of the previous post was to say that they'd be stronger after the rest day to adjust to the bag. id like to see a lot more info before making any conclusions about how long it takes for a bag to kick in.

Maybe Lance will weigh in on Stages.
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