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Motor doping thread

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Re: Re:

26 Mar 2018 22:50

Catwhoorg wrote:
SHAD0W93 wrote:Yea like the baggage claim xrays. I guess the idea sounds better in my head. :o



It would actually be fairly trivial engineering to make a "pass through" scanner like the airport ones.

Conveyor belt with brackets to hold the bikes upright, and put them on one at a time and move them through automatically.


It just wouldn't exactly be portable...


The problem isn't the scanning, it's the lack of time logistically to gather the bikes, scan and return them while teams are trying to get to the next stage asap. At an airport you and your luggage are together in the same place anyway for several hours. At a start of finish line, several hundred bikes and a few thousand wheels are spread across several teams cars they are physically fixed to, mechanics working on them, locked in trucks and neutral service after a race over a few hundred square metres. There's no need to scan all the bikes and wheels. Just scan those in the points and then a random selection that get chaperoned is all you need, same as is done currently.
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Re:

27 Mar 2018 08:24

SHAD0W93 wrote:That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage :D

The electronic tags are cool too.


You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).
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27 Mar 2018 08:44

That's a good idea.
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Re: Re:

27 Mar 2018 09:39

King Boonen wrote:
SHAD0W93 wrote:That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage :D

The electronic tags are cool too.


You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).


That's basically how bike checks are already performed by UCI before and after a race. They'll just add X-Ray after the usual weigh-in, jig inspections and magnetic & ferrous metal detection done currently.

This video shows how this is currently done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw4_Gk36_ik
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Re: Re:

27 Mar 2018 12:33

King Boonen wrote:
SHAD0W93 wrote:That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage :D

The electronic tags are cool too.


You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).


I'd add anyone that doesn't finish with the correct transponder - the bike you finished on and the one with your transponder on to be checked.
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Re: Re:

27 Mar 2018 13:03

wansteadimp wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
SHAD0W93 wrote:That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage :D

The electronic tags are cool too.


You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).


I'd add anyone that doesn't finish with the correct transponder - the bike you finished on and the one with your transponder on to be checked.


Possibly yes, it would depend how many people usually do this. I'm guessing not many, but if 50%+ of the peloton do it then it's unlikely to be feasible. It may also depend on when people reach the finish.
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28 Mar 2018 08:23

Don't feel like riding all pages in this thread, but what is the general consensus here regarding Spartacus and moto doping?
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Re:

28 Mar 2018 09:57

Bardamu wrote:Don't feel like riding all pages in this thread, but what is the general consensus here regarding Spartacus and moto doping?

Split depending on who is posting in the thread at the time.
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Re: Motor doping thread

29 Mar 2018 09:41

@ulif
“It is not just the wheels, having a motor there involves a bike also. They have to create the field,”


HUB MOTORS
But he knows that. The guy who changed T-Mobile in a “clean team”.
IS THERE NO ONE ELSE???
Just someone, anyone without blood on hands.

https://www.twitter.com/ulif/status/979104876042051585
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29 Mar 2018 10:30

Someone already discovered a hub motor suitable for pro bikes or are they still fantasy?
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Re:

29 Mar 2018 11:20

miguelindurain111 wrote:Someone already discovered a hub motor suitable for pro bikes or are they still fantasy?


https://twitter.com/EwonSprokler/status/978261157277569025

I think they could be used. obviously not yet found.
I am halfway between Ewon´s pov who sees a motor in every race every bike everywhere and others pov who says let´s wait for something more believable than Varjas claims.

what I really want to know is in as Ewon says, motors have been used for more than 30 years, why just now we are talking so much about them?
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29 Mar 2018 12:00

Lol, those images prove nothing.
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Re: Re:

30 Mar 2018 12:25

King Boonen wrote:
wansteadimp wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
SHAD0W93 wrote:That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage :D

The electronic tags are cool too.


You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).


I'd add anyone that doesn't finish with the correct transponder - the bike you finished on and the one with your transponder on to be checked.


Possibly yes, it would depend how many people usually do this. I'm guessing not many, but if 50%+ of the peloton do it then it's unlikely to be feasible. It may also depend on when people reach the finish.


Comm already know who has changed bikes in the race. That's why all the fuss over Aqua Blue the other month. Basically you have to change bikes in view of the comm.
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Re: Re:

30 Mar 2018 13:47

samhocking wrote:Comm already know who has changed bikes in the race. That's why all the fuss over Aqua Blue the other month. Basically you have to change bikes in view of the comm.
Not what happened:
President of the race jury Jean-Pierre Coppenolle explained after the race that while the team had been allowed to go up the road to give them time to set-up the bike for Blythe, the bike needed to be delivered from the team car and not from the side of the road, which is what happened.

"The team manager of Blythe asked me if he could go to the front of the bunch to prepare the bike. I said ok, I understand because the new system with the brakes is not easy," said Coppenolle. "He went to the front and prepared the bike but for the changing of the bike it must happen from the behind the bunch and from the car, and only from the car. He gave him the bike but from the ground, that is not allowed in the rules."
And if you have to wait for a comm to be present to change bikes, you could be waiting a bloody long time...think about it.
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Re:

30 Mar 2018 18:00

Bardamu wrote:Don't feel like riding all pages in this thread, but what is the general consensus here regarding Spartacus and moto doping?

Gilbert didn't Menton his name, but it was obvious he was accusing cancellara of moto doping.
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30 Mar 2018 18:11

Didn't van Avermaet vaguely accuse Cancellara as well in Extra Time Koers one time?

It's obvious anyway that Karl Vannieuwkerke is not that proud of his Cancellara fanclub anymore.
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Re: Re:

30 Mar 2018 21:38

samhocking wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
wansteadimp wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
SHAD0W93 wrote:That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage :D

The electronic tags are cool too.


You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).


I'd add anyone that doesn't finish with the correct transponder - the bike you finished on and the one with your transponder on to be checked.


Possibly yes, it would depend how many people usually do this. I'm guessing not many, but if 50%+ of the peloton do it then it's unlikely to be feasible. It may also depend on when people reach the finish.


Comm already know who has changed bikes in the race. That's why all the fuss over Aqua Blue the other month. Basically you have to change bikes in view of the comm.

Thank you for the completely irrelevant point.
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Re:

31 Mar 2018 10:25

miguelindurain111 wrote:Someone already discovered a hub motor suitable for pro bikes or are they still fantasy?

Speaking in technical terms, they are definitely plausible if constrained to ~40 Watts. The technical hurdles are pretty low for a small group with the needed skills and a budget.

The key issues are to maximize the space inside the hub (tungsten axle, inner bushings rather than bearings, etc) and selecting a motor type that doesn't need gearing such as a stepper or a many, many pole DC. Make it a reluctance motor and you don't need a clutch mechanism to prevent back emf.

The rest is just prototyping until you get the performance specs, including concealment. Then comes the months and months of road testing, breaking things, and iterating.

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31 Mar 2018 18:35

So they are still fantasy unlike Vivax-type motors. Thanks.
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Re:

31 Mar 2018 20:25

miguelindurain111 wrote:So they are still fantasy unlike Vivax-type motors. Thanks.

We have no idea. Generally if things are possible and the economics work out, they become real in short order.

Unlike vivax style motors, which have some appeal to a general market because of the power they can generate, hub motors are inherently limited and really have a market narrowed only to cheating racers. This dictates that the market is small and the price is high, and any marketing will be very private and direct to the individual user.

In other words, hub motors are possible and therefore likely, but will be extremely limited in scope. This could very well mean that nobody uses them. Or that they don't exist! But... I've priced out the development and for roughly $120,000 I can get you a working prototype that hits specs. Even if I'm off by a factor of 3 in terms of cost, would that be worth it to someone? Would they take the risk? Do the economics work out?

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