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Sagan Clean?

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Re:

20 Mar 2017 13:52

DFA123 wrote:Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.



This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.
Especially in the case of Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali, Sagan GVA any piece of suspicious evidence must have very high market value.
But of course, I can be very mistaken and naive.
I do hope that Armstrong will lose all his money as I do not mind Sagan will lose his one if he is fraud.
User avatar SKSemtex
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 13:56

SKSemtex wrote:
DFA123 wrote:Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.



This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.
Especially in the case of Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali, Sagan GVA any piece of suspicious evidence must have very high market value.
But of course, I can be very mistaken and naive.
I do hope that Armstrong will lose all his money as I do not mind Sagan will lose his one if he is fraud.


We know for a fact there have been doctors on the payroll who did not rat out riders. In fact I can't think of one who ever did, but I just woke up. Anyway, since we know that most if not all doping doctors do not rat out their clients, we know the lack of a doctor coming forward is not evidence that a rider is clean.
User avatar red_flanders
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 14:10

SKSemtex wrote:
DFA123 wrote:Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.



This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.
Especially in the case of Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali, Sagan GVA any piece of suspicious evidence must have very high market value.
But of course, I can be very mistaken and naive.
I do hope that Armstrong will lose all his money as I do not mind Sagan will lose his one if he is fraud.


This is a confusing post.

Even the people that eventually got caught doping, it was almost never because their doctor or wife or nurse spoke out.

You are acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened.

It really has the taint of one of those desperate unthought through "my rider has to be clean because i love my rider and won't sleep if anyone says bad things about him", arguments we've seen frequently over the last 6 years.
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 15:00



There must be a mistake in there. In 1997 Peter Van Petegem topped the Poggio alone in the lead, not the Jalabert, Bartoli, Museeuw trio. If my memory does not let me down. I was an early teen back then but I remember the race quite well (unless they were not in the peloton at the start which I doubt).
Echoes
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 15:11

The Hitch wrote:
SKSemtex wrote:
DFA123 wrote:Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.



This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.
Especially in the case of Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali, Sagan GVA any piece of suspicious evidence must have very high market value.
But of course, I can be very mistaken and naive.
I do hope that Armstrong will lose all his money as I do not mind Sagan will lose his one if he is fraud.


This is a confusing post.

Even the people that eventually got caught doping, it was almost never because their doctor or wife or nurse spoke out.

You are acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened.

It really has the taint of one of those desperate unthought through "my rider has to be clean because i love my rider and won't sleep if anyone says bad things about him", arguments we've seen frequently over the last 6 years.


I am not desperate and believe me I will be able to sleep very well even if he get caught dirty. I am not active in this section and I did not start my though as a reply to some wrong saying about him. It was just my general thought and I could easily state it on the Froome´s thread. I do think it must be kind of difficult to keep it secret these days especially for big fishes. I do not buy theory "too big to fall". But as I said I know nothing about this matter. And I am as usual naive and mistaken. But if everybody thinks all of them are dopers why to watch this sport anymore?
And I am not acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened but the world has changed a lot last 10 years. And it is changing very fast every year.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 17:24

SKSemtex wrote:I am not desperate and believe me I will be able to sleep very well even if he get caught dirty. I am not active in this section and I did not start my though as a reply to some wrong saying about him. It was just my general thought and I could easily state it on the Froome´s thread. I do think it must be kind of difficult to keep it secret these days especially for big fishes. I do not buy theory "too big to fall". But as I said I know nothing about this matter. And I am as usual naive and mistaken. But if everybody thinks all of them are dopers why to watch this sport anymore?
And I am not acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened but the world has changed a lot last 10 years. And it is changing very fast every year.


To the bolded, why? We know big fish in the last 10 years have been doping, and none of them have been revealed by other riders or co-workers. Why is it difficult to keep doping secret "these days"?

I'm not sure what sport I'd watch if my bar for watching it was "all or most must be clean". Football? Nope. Futbol? Nope. Cycling? Nope. Basketball? Maybe, never heard much about doping there. Track & Field? Hahahahahaha. Nope. Skiing? Doubt it, there seem to be some very obvious dopers there (Vaughn jumps to mind). Tennis? Hahahahahaha. Nope.

Cycling is a beautiful, brutal, difficult and deeply flawed sport. As a viewer it takes me down beautiful roads I can't get to everyday myself, and provides a massive spectacle which I love. I haven't felt like the sport was clean in my lifetime, and certainly not since the mid-late nineties. Not going to stop me from watching it. I don't need to believe a fantasy to enjoy the sport.

Clearly it would be better if doping were minimized, but the powers that be are demonstrably dis-interested in doing things which harm their ability to make a buck. As such, doping has been and will remain rampant.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 17:31

red_flanders wrote:
SKSemtex wrote:I am not desperate and believe me I will be able to sleep very well even if he get caught dirty. I am not active in this section and I did not start my though as a reply to some wrong saying about him. It was just my general thought and I could easily state it on the Froome´s thread. I do think it must be kind of difficult to keep it secret these days especially for big fishes. I do not buy theory "too big to fall". But as I said I know nothing about this matter. And I am as usual naive and mistaken. But if everybody thinks all of them are dopers why to watch this sport anymore?
And I am not acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened but the world has changed a lot last 10 years. And it is changing very fast every year.


To the bolded, why? We know big fish in the last 10 years have been doping, and none of them have been revealed by other riders or co-workers. Why is it difficult to keep doping secret "these days"?

I'm not sure what sport I'd watch if my bar for watching it was "all or most must be clean". Football? Nope. Futbol? Nope. Cycling? Nope. Basketball? Maybe, never heard much about doping there. Track & Field? Hahahahahaha. Nope. Skiing? Doubt it, there seem to be some very obvious dopers there (Vaughn jumps to mind). Tennis? Hahahahahaha. Nope.

Cycling is a beautiful, brutal, difficult and deeply flawed sport. As a viewer it takes me down beautiful roads I can't get to everyday myself, and provides a massive spectacle which I love. I haven't felt like the sport was clean in my lifetime, and certainly not since the mid-late nineties. Not going to stop me from watching it. I don't need to believe a fantasy to enjoy the sport.

Clearly it would be better if doping were minimized, but the powers that be are demonstrably dis-interested in doing things which harm their ability to make a buck. As such, doping has been and will remain rampant.


nice post :)

And regarding big fishes? It is just my personal hate of any conspiration theories that are so common and widespread right now. I always tried to imagine those people finding out that test was positive, how they are going to cover it up. It must be a nice bunch of people and from my own life experience I know that where three people know the secret there is no secret anymore.
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Re:

22 Mar 2017 19:22

AICA ribonucleotide wrote:I was listening to an interview today from what was formerly the telegraph cycling podcast with Sagan's new teammate Sam Bennett http://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/alberto-contador-lights-up-paris-nice-episode-10. He was asked why he's stronger this year and he put it down to doing an "altitude camp with Sagan" he mentioned how he previously struggled with climbing but now at the Paris - NIce he was with the front group going over Cat 1s. The whole thing sounded like the most obvious sign posted doping interview in years. It was like something from the 90s before riders had their guard up with the media.


If Sam Bennett starts cycling with the front group, which is highly unlikely, on major climbs like Ventoux, Alpe d'Huez etc with all the big guns, then and only then can one talk.
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Re: Re:

24 Mar 2017 11:25

SKSemtex wrote:
DFA123 wrote:Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.



This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.

As if it never happened before... Certainly you've heard of some cases, like, say, Armstrong, didn't you?
Kokoso
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Re:

24 Mar 2017 11:33

TourOfSardinia wrote:Q: why is Sagan so often 2nd, if he's performance is enhanced?
Why not just win?

One of the most ridiculous post I've ever read here, sorry Tour of Sardinia. You are looking from really distorted perspective. Sagan is winning A LOT of races, like really A LOT. From your post it would appear he barely wins anything all year(s) long, but he has over 90 wins so far...27 years old.
Kokoso
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Re: Re:

24 Mar 2017 11:35

red_flanders wrote:
SKSemtex wrote:I am not desperate and believe me I will be able to sleep very well even if he get caught dirty. I am not active in this section and I did not start my though as a reply to some wrong saying about him. It was just my general thought and I could easily state it on the Froome´s thread. I do think it must be kind of difficult to keep it secret these days especially for big fishes. I do not buy theory "too big to fall". But as I said I know nothing about this matter. And I am as usual naive and mistaken. But if everybody thinks all of them are dopers why to watch this sport anymore?
And I am not acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened but the world has changed a lot last 10 years. And it is changing very fast every year.


To the bolded, why? We know big fish in the last 10 years have been doping, and none of them have been revealed by other riders or co-workers. Why is it difficult to keep doping secret "these days"?

I'm not sure what sport I'd watch if my bar for watching it was "all or most must be clean". Football? Nope. Futbol? Nope. Cycling? Nope. [b]Basketball? Maybe, never heard much about doping there.[/b] Track & Field? Hahahahahaha. Nope. Skiing? Doubt it, there seem to be some very obvious dopers there (Vaughn jumps to mind). Tennis? Hahahahahaha. Nope.

Cycling is a beautiful, brutal, difficult and deeply flawed sport. As a viewer it takes me down beautiful roads I can't get to everyday myself, and provides a massive spectacle which I love. I haven't felt like the sport was clean in my lifetime, and certainly not since the mid-late nineties. Not going to stop me from watching it. I don't need to believe a fantasy to enjoy the sport.

Clearly it would be better if doping were minimized, but the powers that be are demonstrably dis-interested in doing things which harm their ability to make a buck. As such, doping has been and will remain rampant.


The only thing I disagree with in your post. With all the money that is involved in that sport and the pathetic anti-doping policy there is just no chance these guys are not walking pharmacies. Why wouldn't they dope?
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Re: Sagan Clean?

24 Mar 2017 11:39

SKSemtex wrote:If Sagan is doping he must be very very smart in it. This is his 4. team. It is simply hard to believe that some of the former team members (cyclist, doctors, masseurs etc.) who had some kind of information would not have sold it to media or any other bidder. It must be a lot of people for whom Sagan is not exactly their friend. A lot of them are out of a job or business now and they are not under any "omerta" anymore.
I am sure this information would be worth a lot.
I am not saying he is clean. For me, it is always 50/50 for any top rider. But I just cannot imagine how sophisticated this doping must be to keep all possible information secret for so much time.

See Armstrong case. All you need to know. It's possible, even despite hardly imaginable. There are lots of hardly imaginable thigns out there, especially when you are not in it, and lot of unimaginable things, huge amount of unimaginable thing actually.

P.S. Why would he do anything through his brother? His brother can know nothing, too. It woud be stupid to "use" his brother I think anyway.
Kokoso
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Re: Sagan Clean?

24 Mar 2017 13:12

SKSemtex wrote:If Sagan is doping he must be very very smart in it. This is his 4. team. It is simply hard to believe that some of the former team members (cyclist, doctors, masseurs etc.) who had some kind of information would not have sold it to media or any other bidder. It must be a lot of people for whom Sagan is not exactly their friend. A lot of them are out of a job or business now and they are not under any "omerta" anymore.
I am sure this information would be worth a lot.
I am not saying he is clean. For me, it is always 50/50 for any top rider. But I just cannot imagine how sophisticated this doping must be to keep all possible information secret for so much time.


Given the history of the sport, I think 50/50 might be a bit unrealistic.

(I know that doesn't add much to the discussion, it just jumped out at me)
Dan2016
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Re: Sagan Clean?

25 Mar 2017 05:04

Kokoso wrote:See Armstrong case. All you need to know. It's possible, even despite hardly imaginable. There are lots of hardly imaginable thigns out there, especially when you are not in it, and lot of unimaginable things, huge amount of unimaginable thing actually.


Armstrong is a clinical psychopath though and it was obvious in his personality. Sagan is a cool character and I just don't see him doing these types of things in secret. But like the other guy said, 50/50 on a top rider.
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25 Mar 2017 09:15

See almost every other case then. People who break omertà are a tiny minority.
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Re:

29 Mar 2017 13:50

hrotha wrote:See almost every other case then. People who break omertà are a tiny minority.

Exactly.
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Re: Sagan Clean?

29 Mar 2017 14:00

TourOfTexas wrote:
Kokoso wrote:See Armstrong case. All you need to know. It's possible, even despite hardly imaginable. There are lots of hardly imaginable thigns out there, especially when you are not in it, and lot of unimaginable things, huge amount of unimaginable thing actually.


Armstrong is a clinical psychopath though and it was obvious in his personality.

That's a lie, obviously it wasn't obvious what Armstrong's personality is for more than decade. Anyway, see then other cases. Armstrong was just an example.

Sagan is a cool character
Firstly - that's just your faith. You don't really know who he is. Speaking about psychopaths, you probably know that you have no way to recognize someone is psychopath. That's one trait of psychopath personality. Not that I would say Sagan is psychopath, nor that he isn't, I just can't know. Secondly, that's a matter of taste. I don't like Sagan much a and there are lots people with similar opinion.

and I just don't see him doing these types of things in secret.

Guess you don't see people doing things in secret because they are doing them in secret :D
Kokoso
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18 Apr 2017 12:11

Sagan can win the Tour de France, says Roberto Amadio.
“It’s clear, he’d have to modify his body, thin down, losing power, everything, but I think he’s taking advantage of his natural talents now. He’s always giving a good show and pulling off wins. Working on it, he could also win a Tour de France designed in a certain way. He’d have to defend in the time trials and on the climbs… but it’s a complex discussion. He’d have to be smart, like Bradley Wiggins, and make enormous sacrifices to modify his body.”
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Re: Sagan Clean?

18 Apr 2017 20:03

Kokoso wrote:
TourOfTexas wrote:
Kokoso wrote:See Armstrong case. All you need to know. It's possible, even despite hardly imaginable. There are lots of hardly imaginable thigns out there, especially when you are not in it, and lot of unimaginable things, huge amount of unimaginable thing actually.


Armstrong is a clinical psychopath though and it was obvious in his personality.

That's a lie, obviously it wasn't obvious what Armstrong's personality is for more than decade. Anyway, see then other cases. Armstrong was just an example.

Sagan is a cool character
Firstly - that's just your faith. You don't really know who he is. Speaking about psychopaths, you probably know that you have no way to recognize someone is psychopath. That's one trait of psychopath personality. Not that I would say Sagan is psychopath, nor that he isn't, I just can't know. Secondly, that's a matter of taste. I don't like Sagan much a and there are lots people with similar opinion.

and I just don't see him doing these types of things in secret.

Guess you don't see people doing things in secret because they are doing them in secret :D


Armstrong's Mother asked the LeMond's to help her son stop being 'such an a$$hole' and that was when he was 21.

I think people knew for a long time the real Armstrong.

I dont get pyschotic idiot of Sagan.
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Re: Re:

19 Apr 2017 04:42

frisenfruitig wrote:
The only thing I disagree with in your post. With all the money that is involved in that sport and the pathetic anti-doping policy there is just no chance these guys are not walking pharmacies. Why wouldn't they dope?
and true'r words, ne'er were spoke
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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