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Sagan Clean?

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Sagan Clean?

03 Apr 2016 16:30

Since, y'know, Flanders, WC, TDF and all. Sagan clean, minimal dope, or extra-dope?

He wins, so that's an obvious black mark against him.

He hasn't "come from nowhere," has serious skills and an impressive palmares.

Hairy legs, wheelies and non-robotic personality aside...

Can't find much in the way of rumors after cursory search of the internet.

Personally, I doubt it. Muy mucho doubt.
chuckmicD
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03 Apr 2016 17:17

He looks like he is as clean as any winner could've ever been in such a demanding sport. I doubt any other monument winner (that was a favorite) was cleaner than him, at least if we are looking at the past 100 years.

Before 1916 trains were the new epo, so who knows.

He certainly looks cleaner than Lemond ever did.

Besides, we all got written confirmation from Anquetil in the 50s that you can't win anything on bread and water. What are you pretending? What's the real meaning of your question? What is considered "doping"? Is he allowed to drug himself as much as those riders that kept their wins, right?

Let him ride. What a joy he brings to this sport.
pedromiguelmartins
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03 Apr 2016 17:24

sagan is a nobrainer

world class, naturally talented athlete? check
ruthless doper? check
excellent responder? check
too valuable to fail? check
sniper
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03 Apr 2016 17:27

Obviously one of the more naturally talented riders in the peloton, dope or not. Looks on another level this season, though. Looks like he's doing what it takes to scrape up the cobblestone races this season and I wouldn't be surprised to see him win next Sunday.

His team only adds to the suspicion.
User avatar Saint Unix
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03 Apr 2016 17:47

Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.
User avatar the delgados
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Re:

03 Apr 2016 17:59

the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.


this
and rightly you used they

but as Sniper says, a few riders in the peloton are too big to trip the wire, too valuable for the circus
pastronef
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2016 18:37

pastronef wrote:
the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.


this
and rightly you used they

but as Sniper says, a few riders in the peloton are too big to trip the wire, too valuable for the circus



That's why I don't understand why any governing body offers up the occasional sacrificial lamb.
You see it in cycling, hockey and minor league baseball. I don't understand why they think popping a no-name athlete reinforces public trust that said sport is clean. It defies logic.
User avatar the delgados
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Re:

03 Apr 2016 19:13

Saint Unix wrote:Obviously one of the more naturally talented riders in the peloton, dope or not. Looks on another level this season, though. Looks like he's doing what it takes to scrape up the cobblestone races this season and I wouldn't be surprised to see him win next Sunday.

His team only adds to the suspicion.

Not possible to deduce someones natural talent vs the rest if dope is involved. Only way to do that is to have a clean sport.
Just out of interest if dope is involved how do you deduce he is a natural talent in the peleton ?
Finally with dope in the peleton how do you know anyone is naturally talented ?
noddy69
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Re:

03 Apr 2016 19:49

the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.



oh...I don't think he's clean which, re-reading my post, wasn't all that clear; but that was the "muy mucho doubt" part. Lots of doubt that he's clean--I was answering the post title. Full stop. ; )

At least he can handle a bike though. Good ole mtb skills for ya.
chuckmicD
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Re:

03 Apr 2016 20:03

Saint Unix wrote:Obviously one of the more naturally talented riders in the peloton, dope or not. Looks on another level this season, though. Looks like he's doing what it takes to scrape up the cobblestone races this season and I wouldn't be surprised to see him win next Sunday.

His team only adds to the suspicion.


My reaction once he crossed the line today: he should think twice whether he really wants to win Roubaix this year... I'd rather recommend the usual cramps/can't sprint after 200kms... in order not to raise the eyebrows too much. On the other hand, he would not look so dominant if Spartacus cared to join the party when Kwiato attacked.
doperhopper
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03 Apr 2016 20:23

It's not just his team, it's also his connection with Slongo from 2010 to 2013.
In 2013 Sagan was incredibly strong, but then Slongo went to Astana, Sagan was still great, but he wasn't a strong as 2013 Sagan when he signed with Tinkoff.
The whole Cannondale team underperformed after Slongo's departure, they went from 36 wins in 2013 to 17 wins in 2014.
User avatar Mayomaniac
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2016 20:27

the delgados wrote:
pastronef wrote:
the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.


this
and rightly you used they

but as Sniper says, a few riders in the peloton are too big to trip the wire, too valuable for the circus



That's why I don't understand why any governing body offers up the occasional sacrificial lamb.
You see it in cycling, hockey and minor league baseball. I don't understand why they think popping a no-name athlete reinforces public trust that said sport is clean. It defies logic.



I think you overestimate the extent to which the key decision makers in sports governance manage doping, and the extent to which they have control. There's no smoke-filled room where they get together to identify sacrificial lambs. Instead, I imagine there is a tacit understanding that some transparency and anti-doping is needed, provided by largely independent but influencable bodies, but that marketable stars should be protected because it's bad for business if they're caught. The collusion that enables widespread doping is of the don't ask don't tell kind. They trust athletes to to manage their doping well. I imagine sacrificial lamps are actually very rare.
User avatar SeriousSam
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2016 20:41

SeriousSam wrote:
the delgados wrote:
pastronef wrote:
the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.


this
and rightly you used they

but as Sniper says, a few riders in the peloton are too big to trip the wire, too valuable for the circus



That's why I don't understand why any governing body offers up the occasional sacrificial lamb.
You see it in cycling, hockey and minor league baseball. I don't understand why they think popping a no-name athlete reinforces public trust that said sport is clean. It defies logic.



I think you overestimate the extent to which the key decision makers in sports governance manage doping, and the extent to which they have control. There's no smoke-filled room where they get together to identify sacrificial lambs. Instead, I imagine there is a tacit understanding that some transparency and anti-doping is needed, provided by largely independent but influencable bodies, but that marketable stars should be protected because it's bad for business if they're caught. The collusion that enables widespread doping is of the don't ask don't tell kind. They trust athletes to to manage their doping well. I imagine sacrificial lamps are actually very rare.


Very good post (although I'm not sure what good a sacrificial lamp would do, apart from possibly making anti-doping agencies even more in the dark than usual).
choose life choose a car choose smack choose gullibility choose marx choose opium choose religion choose masses
-blackcat
Cannibal72
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2016 21:31

noddy69 wrote:
Saint Unix wrote:Obviously one of the more naturally talented riders in the peloton, dope or not. Looks on another level this season, though. Looks like he's doing what it takes to scrape up the cobblestone races this season and I wouldn't be surprised to see him win next Sunday.

His team only adds to the suspicion.

Not possible to deduce someones natural talent vs the rest if dope is involved. Only way to do that is to have a clean sport.
Just out of interest if dope is involved how do you deduce he is a natural talent in the peleton ?
Finally with dope in the peleton how do you know anyone is naturally talented ?


he clearly has better bike handling skills then the others and is one of the best descenders of the peloton. you don't get to that level without some natural talent.

either way, he is clearly doping. he gained severel pounds of muscle mass during the off-season, while doing an endurance sport and without gainning fat. that's impossible for a natural person/athlete.
carolina
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Re: Sagan Clean?

03 Apr 2016 21:44

chuckmicD wrote:Since, y'know, Flanders, WC, TDF and all. Sagan clean, minimal dope, or extra-dope? .

we already have a perfectly good thread for Peter here
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22111

He was a great junior - no donkey racehorse here
User avatar TourOfSardinia
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2016 21:55

SeriousSam wrote:
the delgados wrote:
pastronef wrote:
the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.


this
and rightly you used they

but as Sniper says, a few riders in the peloton are too big to trip the wire, too valuable for the circus



That's why I don't understand why any governing body offers up the occasional sacrificial lamb.
You see it in cycling, hockey and minor league baseball. I don't understand why they think popping a no-name athlete reinforces public trust that said sport is clean. It defies logic.



I think you overestimate the extent to which the key decision makers in sports governance manage doping, and the extent to which they have control. There's no smoke-filled room where they get together to identify sacrificial lambs. Instead, I imagine there is a tacit understanding that some transparency and anti-doping is needed, provided by largely independent but influencable bodies, but that marketable stars should be protected because it's bad for business if they're caught. The collusion that enables widespread doping is of the don't ask don't tell kind. They trust athletes to to manage their doping well. I imagine sacrificial lamps are actually very rare.


Agree. My post was poorly worded and was written in haste.
User avatar the delgados
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04 Apr 2016 00:04

Total speculation, but I have the feeling he will go the way of Andy Schleck. His brother will get popped, and he will get spooked. More plausible than Peter himself getting caught.
More Strides than Rides
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Re:

04 Apr 2016 00:48

the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.


put it in reverse mister semenko.

next thing you gonna tell us Easter bunny is not real and a fictional construction
and that the maple leaf missile is not a p0rnstar
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
User avatar blackcat
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 01:26

noddy69 wrote:Not possible to deduce someones natural talent vs the rest if dope is involved. Only way to do that is to have a clean sport.
Just out of interest if dope is involved how do you deduce he is a natural talent in the peleton ?
Finally with dope in the peleton how do you know anyone is naturally talented ?

Unless he's been on the gear since he was a child he's obviously naturally talented. He's been destroying the field his entire life.

He's arguably the best bike handler in the peloton too, even if that's completely irrelevant as far as aerobic capabilities go.
User avatar Saint Unix
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 01:41

blackcat wrote:
the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.


put it in reverse mister semenko.

next thing you gonna tell us Easter bunny is not real and a fictional construction
and that the maple leaf missile is not a p0rnstar


Ha! I'm right here, you know.
I swear I'm not a porn star.
User avatar the delgados
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