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Sagan Clean?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Tonton, Pricey_sky, King Boonen

Re: Sagan Clean?

01 Mar 2017 11:02

veganrob wrote:I guess you still don't understand what we are discussing here, do you.
We are discussing here possibly The Clinic's craziest conspiracy theory yet, one in which sweeties are being used as a masking agent but masking what and masking how are both unknown. Next: Sagan is an alien from BBZZ9Alpha - if I'm proved wrong down the line so be it, but for now it's possible. Lame theory or disappointing truth? Time will tell.
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 11:06

PeterB wrote:Actually, seeing Haribos reminded me something and now I finally found what it was: https://cyclingtips.com/2014/05/lotto-belisol-team-bus-tour-with-adam-hansen/
I'm sure I saw them also at least in one other team bus video but don't have time to search for it now. What a job to be supplied with candies at work! :)
Haribo do a lot in cycling, have done for a long time. They especially like to give them out like, well, candy. You're going to see professional cyclists with them.
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01 Mar 2017 11:07

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01 Mar 2017 11:12

http://www.philly.com/philly/health/sportsmedicine/Post-workout_key_Gummy_bears.html

The obvious answer is the right one; he just likes a big handful of gummy bears after a race. Probably does the same in training too. The gummy bear as optimal recovery food has been around for years, it's not new. Bodybuilders have advocated it for years. When I was racing it was Jelly Babies. Sagan is just a gummy bear man. A hairy gummy bear man.

Whether he had hunger knock or not at end of the race is a red herring. Soigneurs usually have a little backpack with the various things their riders want/need at the end of a race. No advance communication needed. Many want a can of coke. Some want recovery shake. Sagan likes gummy bears.

The drug masking idea is tinfoil-hat stuff. Very unlikely top riders nowadays have enough doping product still in their system to be at risk of failing post-race testing. Too high a risk. Controlled micro-dosing in advance, maybe plus masking agents, is what they are doing.

Even if he took such a stupidly high risk, the gummy bear idea as masking agent seems incredibly silly. Fastest absorption is surely liquid, sublingual or ingestion, not swallowing gummies. Never mind that these gummies laced with masking agents would have to be specifically made by someone in the team, made to look like Haribos, tested to see how effective they are etc. Pointless waste of considerable time. And gelatin alone might work at masking as in that Cannabis link, who knows, but certainly not in the very short time window before the post-race test. Our metabolism doesn't work that quickly.

What is more interesting to me is that this is even being discussed. Indicative of just how little trust there is in riders now, suspicion over absolutely everything. Probably justifiably so, unfortunately. This gummy bear thing is by far the maddest suspicion I've seen so far though.
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01 Mar 2017 11:28

Yeah, I mean, what kind of masking agent can there be in gummy bears that works instantly and that cannot be in a drink instead? Would people have gone crazy if they saw him drink coke after the race (or a beer)?

Masking agent at work here as well?
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Re: Sagan Clean?

01 Mar 2017 11:41

fmk_RoI wrote:Next: Sagan is an alien from BBZZ9Alpha
Right now your sugar rush hypothesis is as crazy and speculative as any, even though you present it as fact.
A guy with a millionaire contract who clearly had enough sugars to win the finale of KBK, sugar rush post-finish.
And his soigneur saw it coming. And pulled out a bag of haribos.
Yep, might as well be talking aliens.
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Re: Sagan Clean?

01 Mar 2017 11:51

sniper wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:your sugar rush hypothesis is as crazy and speculative as any, even though you present it as fact
<<<edited by mods>>>> but I did not present my sugar rush hypothesis as fact. Soz.
Last edited by Irondan on 01 Mar 2017 15:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post, not poster
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 11:53

Netserk wrote:Masking agent at work here as well?
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OMG! Join the dots! Sagz uses post-race masking agents. Fabs uses post-race masking agents. Fabs uses Luigi Cecchini and a motor. Sagz uses Luigi Cecchini and a motor. It's sooo obvious once you point it out!
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01 Mar 2017 13:06

Sniper, I think it's a mistake to conflate examples like the ones you've given with any crazy theory in an attempt to give it credibility, even if just speculative credibility.

The examples you gave all carry a degree of internal logic in their own context. The attempts at masking or avoiding tests were logical choices in context. Tyler's twin was a logical if depressingly desperate attempt to avoid a ban. On the other hand, Sagan using gummy bears as a masking agent carries no logic whatsoever. If he really needed to mask something under those circumstances, and remember he's risking losing his career, the masking agent carrier needs to be very very fast acting in order to be confident it has worked in time for the test he's about to have. So it has to be liquid, probably tincture or sublingual lozenge. The time to metabolise a laced gummy bear wouldn't work, or at least couldn't be predictable. The idea is just silly.

The first principle though, in my opinion, is that top pro's expecting to be up there for the podium do not enter racing knowing they will need a masking agent. Not nowadays. The drug metabolites have long left their system and I think they will be sure of this. So the gummy bear speculation is moot. Fails on first principles. Fails on basic logic. It appeals to my enjoyment in debating the completely absurd though.
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01 Mar 2017 13:06

Sagan's Soigneur: Anything special you would like today when you finish the race?
Peter Sagan: If I don't win I want rice cakes, if I win I want Haribo gummies, I had a craving for those this morning.
SS: You got it Peter.

Or

Sagan's Soigneur: Anything special you would like today when you finish the race?
Peter Sagan: I think today I will mask my doping, mmmmm, let's try Haribo gummies!
SS: You got it Peter.

Just as a fair warning, the above is purely fictional, and should not be included in any theories for or against the use of doping in the professional peloton.
And just for the record my world wouldn't tumble if Sagan was caught masking anything. I jusr find the clutching of highly imaginable straws incredibly one-tracked and stupid.
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01 Mar 2017 13:11

General note to all

There is absolutely no common knowledge, proof, data, or even speculation that gives this gummy bear "masking agent" theory any legs whatsoever. Please read forum rules, after you do that you'll see that this line of conversation is against forum policy. I'm going to stand behind what I'm saying here and start deleting any comments that post anything more than a stated opinion.
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01 Mar 2017 14:34

The gummi bears are absolutely no different than other guys chugging a coke or other soda. Its sugar for recovery.
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01 Mar 2017 14:44

I'm laughing my *** off here.
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Re: Sagan Clean?

01 Mar 2017 14:50

Credibility has been lost by many (if they had much at all in the first place) in this line of discussion. I thought that we had stretched the limits of over-the-top suspicions but this has it's own universe of absurdity and silliness. How can anyone who supported this foolishness actually call themselves a fan of the sport? How can they even watch and enjoy any high level cycling competition with a thought process like this? It's kind of sad. :(
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01 Mar 2017 15:08

It's hilarious. I love the idea someone has watched a pro rider gulping down gummy bears and thought ''Holy ****! Masking agents''.
Kind of a shame Irondan has put a block to more speculation/discussion though. I'm bored and was finding it quite entertaining debating the completely absurd in a semi-serious way.
By far the maddest idea I've seen in the Clinic.
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Re: Sagan Clean?

01 Mar 2017 15:29

I forgot that Bora itself is often promoting healthy food recipes. Must have been why they put this (twitter) out even though it was a very marginal use of their stuff. And again, his wife part-owns a health food company, which sponsors the team and has Peter as a spokesman. And that's in addition to Bora's sports nutrition partner High5 and everyone else I mentioned earlier. And he just went to town on those Haribos, all throughout the post-race, the camera an inch form his face. The honey badger meme was played out years ago, but good God.

P.S. Not trying to fan any flames here. I'm reticent about censorship of any type, particularly here, but I respect Irondan doing his best Bora impression on these particular fumes after allowing them to burn out.
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 16:38

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers, finish bottles etc., you've no doubt heard of those. So there might be a motive for masking post-finish.
And well, this being procycling...just saying, while it's definitely mad (we agree), maybe that's procycling for you.

And of course all usual disclaimers apply. :D
Last edited by Irondan on 01 Mar 2017 19:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Link removed in lieu of forum translation policies.
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 17:44

sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers, finish bottles etc., you've no doubt heard of those. So there might be a motive for masking post-finish.
And well, this being procycling...just saying, while it's definitely mad (we agree), maybe that's procycling for you.

And of course all usual disclaimers apply. :D
I didn't miss anything sniper, which is not all that remarkable..

I'm not going to argue with you or anyone else in this thread, the gummy bear "masking agent" discussion is over, per very clear forum policy.

If you or anyone else has an issue with my moderation of this thread you have the option to voice your displeasure in the "moderators" thread.

Cheers

I didn't miss anything sniper, which is not all that remarkable.. :rolleyes:

I'm not going to argue with you or anyone else in this thread, the gummy bear "masking agent" discussion is over in this thread, per very clear forum policy.

Again, I will inform you all that any comments that are off topic, or against forum policy will be removed from this thread.

If anyone has an issue with moderation in this thread please voice your displeasure in the "moderators" thread.

For further discussion on "masking agents" please refer to the new topic that I just created.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2068701#p2068701

Cheers
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02 Mar 2017 03:07

I swear if the theories on here get any more outlandish... At this rate we'll soon be having people posting
LOOK AT HIM RIGHT THERE! HIM WITH THE BOTTLE! THERE MUST BE DRUGS AND STUFF IN THAT!
every time a rider takes a drink from his bidon.


And apparently bike changes are done because of the performance-enhancing suppositories they build into the saddles.
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17 Mar 2017 00:09

I was listening to an interview today from what was formerly the telegraph cycling podcast with Sagan's new teammate Sam Bennett http://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/alberto-contador-lights-up-paris-nice-episode-10. He was asked why he's stronger this year and he put it down to doing an "altitude camp with Sagan" he mentioned how he previously struggled with climbing but now at the Paris - NIce he was with the front group going over Cat 1s. The whole thing sounded like the most obvious sign posted doping interview in years. It was like something from the 90s before riders had their guard up with the media.
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