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Sagan Clean?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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17 Mar 2017 15:49

Let's see how well Bennett performs in the next few months before making judgements - It's not like Bennett was slaying the mountains - And it never helped Sagan.
yaco
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18 Mar 2017 22:34

5:55. Third fastest climbing time on Poggio today, we're back to pre-EPO test speeds.

Unbelievable.
User avatar Benotti69
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Re:

18 Mar 2017 23:01

Benotti69 wrote:5:55. Third fastest climbing time on Poggio today, we're back to pre-EPO test speeds.

Unbelievable.


Where are you getting speeds on the Poggio? Would be interesting to see that charted over time. I mean there have to be better hills to chart, but it does have the unique factor of being after 290 km or whatever it is of racing.
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18 Mar 2017 23:08

snccdcno
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18 Mar 2017 23:17

Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless
User avatar GuyIncognito
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Re:

18 Mar 2017 23:53

GuyIncognito wrote:Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless


That's like Beat poetry. Nice one. :)
Dan2016
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 04:03



Thanks! Interesting. Definitely up there. Not what sure one can surmise from such a climb.
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19 Mar 2017 06:54

Q: why is Sagan so often 2nd, if he's performance is enhanced?
Why not just win?
User avatar TourOfSardinia
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 07:39

GuyIncognito wrote:Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless


No. Fast time = 100% dope/motordope

Clinic logic.
"This is the Tour that will determine whether I can drink espresso at the Garda lake the rest of my life"
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 10:04

Valv.Piti wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless


No. Fast time = 100% dope/motordope

Yeah, just look at Sagan's seated acceleration. Not normal.
kingjr
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 21:59

Valv.Piti wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless


No. Fast time = 100% dope/motordope

Clinic logic.


The clinic is so so wrong. :lol:

I mean we just have to turn back the pages of history to see all the clean riders down the ages, the clean culture of bread and water, the attitude of fairness and never cheating, never hold onto cars or motorbikes, never get on trains(real early days for newbies :D) never using motors in bikes.

Crazy clinic to think riders dope!

I mean the teams are not run by people who made a living doping now are they? All those doctors are to make sure there is nothing in the butter that goes on the bread and the water is clean! Then the soigneurs would be watching out for people trying to sell riders PEDs and chase them away with wet towels...... :lol:

Oh Valv Piti you are a joy, pure joy. :D
User avatar Benotti69
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 22:01

TourOfSardinia wrote:Q: why is Sagan so often 2nd, if he's performance is enhanced?
Why not just win?


See Sean Kelly.

Riders do as little as possible when in a break with Sagan. So Sagan ends up always doing more.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 22:48

Benotti69 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless


No. Fast time = 100% dope/motordope

Clinic logic.


The clinic is so so wrong. :lol:

I mean we just have to turn back the pages of history to see all the clean riders down the ages, the clean culture of bread and water, the attitude of fairness and never cheating, never hold onto cars or motorbikes, never get on trains(real early days for newbies :D) never using motors in bikes.

Crazy clinic to think riders dope!

I mean the teams are not run by people who made a living doping now are they? All those doctors are to make sure there is nothing in the butter that goes on the bread and the water is clean! Then the soigneurs would be watching out for people trying to sell riders PEDs and chase them away with wet towels...... :lol:

Oh Valv Piti you are a joy, pure joy. :D


Valv.Piti's point is that your arguments usually come down to:

"Kim Jong-Un likes sugar. Hitler also liked sugar, therefore Kim Jong-Un is a bad man".

Most people agree with your conclusions but think the way you get to them is silly

Benotti69 wrote:
TourOfSardinia wrote:Q: why is Sagan so often 2nd, if he's performance is enhanced?
Why not just win?


See Sean Kelly.

Riders do as little as possible when in a break with Sagan. So Sagan ends up always doing more.


That's part of it, but more often Kelly would get second a lot because when someone got away for the win and the pack realized he was gone, they stopped racing hard, they would finish together and Kelly would win the sprint for 2nd. This doesn't happen as much now because ranking points for placings are more important to riders so now they keep trying to get away for 2nd, 3rd, etc.
User avatar GuyIncognito
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Re: Sagan Clean?

20 Mar 2017 10:56

If Sagan is doping he must be very very smart in it. This is his 4. team. It is simply hard to believe that some of the former team members (cyclist, doctors, masseurs etc.) who had some kind of information would not have sold it to media or any other bidder. It must be a lot of people for whom Sagan is not exactly their friend. A lot of them are out of a job or business now and they are not under any "omerta" anymore.
I am sure this information would be worth a lot.
I am not saying he is clean. For me, it is always 50/50 for any top rider. But I just cannot imagine how sophisticated this doping must be to keep all possible information secret for so much time.
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20 Mar 2017 11:26

Why would any teammates know what he does?
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 11:37

Netserk wrote:Why would any teammates know what he does?


I have no idea how this "business" works nowadays. I was reading quite a lot here on this forum, on the books and for me, it is almost impossible to do it the way the certain shipment is untrackable to the certain rider. It is not like to buy the bear in the shop and even if he does it via Hlad or his brother it must be very hard to keep it secret as everybody in business know them as well.
But this is the same for any rider accused here on this section. Even Froome. The level of conspiracy is out of my imagination at this moment.
Last edited by SKSemtex on 20 Mar 2017 11:40, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar SKSemtex
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20 Mar 2017 11:37

Since when has omertà disappeared? Since when is cycling clean?
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 11:44

veganrob wrote:Since when has omertà disappeared? Since when is cycling clean?


I am not telling the cycling is clean. I am no that naive. But I am sure it is not that easy to keep this staff secret especially if there must be a lot of people willing to pay an incredible amount for this info.
User avatar SKSemtex
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20 Mar 2017 13:13

Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.
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Re: Sagan Clean?

20 Mar 2017 13:49

SKSemtex wrote:If Sagan is doping he must be very very smart in it. This is his 4. team. It is simply hard to believe that some of the former team members (cyclist, doctors, masseurs etc.) who had some kind of information would not have sold it to media or any other bidder. It must be a lot of people for whom Sagan is not exactly their friend. A lot of them are out of a job or business now and they are not under any "omerta" anymore.
I am sure this information would be worth a lot.
I am not saying he is clean. For me, it is always 50/50 for any top rider. But I just cannot imagine how sophisticated this doping must be to keep all possible information secret for so much time.


This is the scenario for every rider who dopes. Yet incredibly few are given up by a teammate or support personnel. Therefore, if most riders who dope are not ratted out, then not being ratted out is not evidence of being clean.
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