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Sagan Clean?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 01:47

the delgados wrote:
pastronef wrote:
the delgados wrote:Dear OP:
I swear I'm not saying this to be mean, but your question reminds me of a child who asks if Santa is real.
They're on the gear.
Full stop.


this
and rightly you used they

but as Sniper says, a few riders in the peloton are too big to trip the wire, too valuable for the circus



That's why I don't understand why any governing body offers up the occasional sacrificial lamb.
You see it in cycling, hockey and minor league baseball. I don't understand why they think popping a no-name athlete reinforces public trust that said sport is clean. It defies logic.

they dont need to offer up JTL. There will be a natural occurrence[sic] of riders breaching the AD regs. Then it is how much political support a rider like JTL (see: Radcliffe) can muster.

JTL has no support. The admin body at British Cycling and AD UK, and the British Olympic Committee now can uphold their ethic and claims they promote, that they perform this role and achieve a holus bolus clean sport. They dont. They wont. They cant. They never will.

Anti-doping is a paradox. There is p'raps one-millionth the money in R&D and operational budget in BigPharma v WADA.

And the motives exist on the individual athlete's side. Every new regulation, the individual will just switch their behaviour to subvert new regulation like in principles from Game Theory.

WADA has legitimacy, where they may constrain doping from making doping a freak show. Now, I know, you may say, doping has made sport indeed a freak show.

But, ceteris paribus, what would doping look like with the Pantani Riis JamieBurrow Armstrong doping, 7.5/7.8 watts per kilo doping.
much more egregious, fulll full full full retardretardretard retar^99 exponential full retard dopin.

so that is the comparison. the comparison that is releveant. Not the current Froome comparison
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 01:56

noddy69 wrote:
Saint Unix wrote:Obviously one of the more naturally talented riders in the peloton, dope or not. Looks on another level this season, though. Looks like he's doing what it takes to scrape up the cobblestone races this season and I wouldn't be surprised to see him win next Sunday.

His team only adds to the suspicion.

Not possible to deduce someones natural talent vs the rest if dope is involved. Only way to do that is to have a clean sport.
Just out of interest if dope is involved how do you deduce he is a natural talent in the peleton ?
Finally with dope in the peleton how do you know anyone is naturally talented ?


this.

however, there is some alchemy that experienced followers think they can deduce if a rider is on a mere maintenance program, or as Millar would call it a "recovery therapy" and just managing or maintaining your natural benchmarks of hormones.

now, this becomes a problem, because it IS natural that under heavy stress and workload your hormones and testosterone will drop. It is natural that during a three week GT your blood will develop more plasma (is that a pleonasm?), and as the plasma increases but the red-cells stay the same, the hematocrit will become lower, even tho the red-cells have not reduced, this is natural, so maintaining your "benchmark", would this require you to supplement with EPO to increase your red-cells?
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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04 Apr 2016 02:02

I see what you're saying, blackat.
Earlier I had an idea that I didn't properly explain; an idea I thought was wise at the time, but now it seems pretty stupid (Full disclosure: I was a bit drunk. Not now, though!)
You wanna hear it?
I knew you would!
Here goes:
Doping in sports is here to stay. Always has and always will be.
For those who care about the children, why not erase any positive doping test and say, "Hey, look! The best athletes in the world are clean as a whistle. You can be too!"
I know it's a dumb idea, but the facade surrounding pro sports seems pretty stupid, too.
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 04:36

SeriousSam wrote:
I think you overestimate the extent to which the key decision makers in sports governance manage doping, and the extent to which they have control. There's no smoke-filled room where they get together to identify sacrificial lambs. Instead, I imagine there is a tacit understanding that some transparency and anti-doping is needed, provided by largely independent but influencable bodies, but that marketable stars should be protected because it's bad for business if they're caught. The collusion that enables widespread doping is of the don't ask don't tell kind. They trust athletes to to manage their doping well. I imagine sacrificial lamps are actually very rare.


^Semenko(delli) aint stupid.

but, here...

with the Murdoch press in Australia... (I am gunna try and use this as an analogy)

with Newscorp in Australia, occasionally the press corps from Rupe's News (newsunlimited), occasionally the journos will arc up (be indignant) when the public say "oh, you are only printing and writing what Rupe told you"

well, no. This is not what the criticism is. The criticism is voiced in rhetoric, you the Newscorp reporter, only print the stuff Rupert told you. This is rhetoric.

What occurs, you the journo, knows what is acceptable to the editor in the newscorp stable.

You wont deliver copy to the editor, that he will not publish, and is unacceptable.

The editor has to deliver a paper that is acceptable to the proprietor.

There, is is a syllogism, you can see the numerous layers of a barrier to entry. In aristotelian logic term: sample fallacy, a survivor fallacy, a selective sample.

If you cant write newslimited copy, you do not get the journalists salary at newslimited will you.



Serious Sam my reply
There can be corruption built in to systems. The corruption may have organically manifested, and it was never structurally imposed by the architect of the system. Or even Cookson, McQuaid, and Verbruggen. The corruption happened because there were not checks and balances built in at the weak points, or where the future weak points would occur.
Last edited by blackcat on 04 Apr 2016 17:14, edited 2 times in total.
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04 Apr 2016 11:01

A good youth record means nothing. Lots of youths dope these days too
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04 Apr 2016 11:41

Gotta love Sagan calling himself, Hulk, a doctor who took a substance that gave enormous powers!!!! That should be an indicator of Sagan's attitude to PEDs
Last edited by Benotti69 on 04 Apr 2016 12:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

04 Apr 2016 11:55

Benotti69 wrote:Gotta love Sagan's calling himself, Hulk, a doctor who took a substance that gave enormous powers!!!! That should be an indicator of Sagan's attitude to PEDs


the doctors name was bruce banner...hulk is completly different entity and it didnt take any substances :rolleyes:
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 12:05

saganftw wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Gotta love Sagan's calling himself, Hulk, a doctor who took a substance that gave enormous powers!!!! That should be an indicator of Sagan's attitude to PEDs


the doctors name was bruce banner...hulk is completly different entity and it didnt take any substances :rolleyes:


Signed,

Sagan-For-The-Win :D
2016: Year of the Red Fire Monkey
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 12:06

saganftw wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Gotta love Sagan's calling himself, Hulk, a doctor who took a substance that gave enormous powers!!!! That should be an indicator of Sagan's attitude to PEDs


the doctors name was bruce banner...hulk is completly different entity and it didnt take any substances :rolleyes:


Slight feeling you may be biased here
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 12:13

PremierAndrew wrote:
saganftw wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Gotta love Sagan's calling himself, Hulk, a doctor who took a substance that gave enormous powers!!!! That should be an indicator of Sagan's attitude to PEDs


the doctors name was bruce banner...hulk is completly different entity and it didnt take any substances :rolleyes:


Slight feeling you may be biased here


i admit,i might be biased towards Marvel...never really liked DC universe
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Re:

04 Apr 2016 13:33

PremierAndrew wrote:A good youth record means nothing.

agreed.
Lots of youths dope these days too
"these days" is an unnecessary qualifier here.
As long as there is doping, there is youth doping.
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Re:

04 Apr 2016 13:39

PremierAndrew wrote:A good youth record means nothing. Lots of youths dope these days too


Quoted for truth.

I've always thought that juniors who doped never turned pro. But then you have the Spilak case.

Anyway, why on earth is having talent an excuse for doping. It's on the contrary an aggravating circumstance. :rolleyes:
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Re:

04 Apr 2016 14:41

Benotti69 wrote:Gotta love Sagan calling himself, Hulk, a doctor who took a substance that gave enormous powers!!!! That should be an indicator of Sagan's attitude to PEDs

I thought Dr. Banner was struck by gamma rays when he ran into a field where they were testing them to save a child who had wandered into it. Perhaps that is from the original origin story and things have changed.
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 14:47

Echoes wrote:...
I've always thought that juniors who doped never turned pro. But then you have the Spilak case.
:confused:
there are literally tons of examples of youth dopers turning pro, from all eras.
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04 Apr 2016 15:14

**** grabbing aside he's exactly the kind of personality that all professional sports are crying out for nowadays. So no chance of him getting busted there, and especially now since in the last 12 months he's become too big to fail too.
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Re:

04 Apr 2016 15:56

tantocomo wrote:**** grabbing aside he's exactly the kind of personality that all professional sports are crying out for nowadays. So no chance of him getting busted there, and especially now since in the last 12 months he's become too big to fail too.


Nowadays people are generally more aware of sexism, which is a good thing, and consequently Sagan takes a lot of stick for that bum grabbing - but I took it as a refreshing bit of cheeky (pardon the pun) irreverence - which is sorely needed because along with our greater awareness we've also become, imo, too uptight.
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 16:15

pedromiguelmartins wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Gotta love Sagan calling himself, Hulk, a doctor who took a substance that gave enormous powers!!!! That should be an indicator of Sagan's attitude to PEDs


Do you even enjoy cycling?


do you love doping?

Why get personal?
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 16:20

Nick C. wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Gotta love Sagan calling himself, Hulk, a doctor who took a substance that gave enormous powers!!!! That should be an indicator of Sagan's attitude to PEDs

I thought Dr. Banner was struck by gamma rays when he ran into a field where they were testing them to save a child who had wandered into it. Perhaps that is from the original origin story and things have changed.



I was placing much not weight on the hulk thing as proof of doping. Just kind of funny, the analogy. I dont think Sagan is clean and the transformation of Banner from normal 'human' to the hulk is the funny thing relating to Sagan.
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 17:17

Echoes wrote:
PremierAndrew wrote:A good youth record means nothing. Lots of youths dope these days too


Quoted for truth.

I've always thought that juniors who doped never turned pro. But then you have the Spilak case.

Anyway, why on earth is having talent an excuse for doping. It's on the contrary an aggravating circumstance. :rolleyes:


Genevieve Jeanson
Oscar Sevilla

I think 16 is about the age.

and I dont think they are unique. I think they are the rule.

Lance was doping himself in tri's at that age, before Chris Carmichael and the US underage national team and his <edited by mods>
Last edited by Irondan on 04 Apr 2016 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Sexual innuendo
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2016 17:20

Maxiton wrote:
tantocomo wrote:**** grabbing aside he's exactly the kind of personality that all professional sports are crying out for nowadays. So no chance of him getting busted there, and especially now since in the last 12 months he's become too big to fail too.


Nowadays people are generally more aware of sexism, which is a good thing, and consequently Sagan takes a lot of stick for that bum grabbing - but I took it as a refreshing bit of cheeky (pardon the pun) irreverence - which is sorely needed because along with our greater awareness we've also become, imo, too uptight.



heck, Cipo would take his podium girls straight up to his suite and give them a "what-for" and George Hincapie married one cos George has the IQ and personality of a <edited by mods>.
Last edited by Irondan on 04 Apr 2016 18:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Disgusting, sexual innuendo
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