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Sagan Clean?

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Re: Re:

12 Apr 2018 18:21

Durden93 wrote:Thank you for saying this. LS, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts as you have a depth of knowledge rivalled by few others. Please don’t sink to the level of the trolls.

You mean like those many Sagan fans who set on all posts critical of their man like a Froome fan wandering unaware into the Clinic, until posters simply don't bother, and silence all negative opinions and who were attacking and mocking me in conversations about him that I hadn't even participated in? Maybe it's got better now and it's possible to hold a critical opinion without it being made to feel unwelcome (I've noticed the treatment of many posters whose positions were much less vitriolic than mine, before you ask), but since Sagan and the furore that surrounds him have become a huge dent in my enjoyment of the sport, I simply don't watch any race he's in and avoid the discussions at least on race days when emotions are riding high, to try to stop getting into arguments like I used to.

This thread is one of the few where a discourse which can be both supportive of, and critical of, Peter Sagan has been able to flourish, for better or for worse (and given some of the ridiculous stuff like the Gummi Bears, often for worse admittedly), and I thought self-deprecating humour was a good-natured way to steer the conversation back towards its intended subject without either personally attacking Pisti or Sagan himself. Unfortunately for me, it fell flat.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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12 Apr 2018 18:45

LS mate, if the Sagan love here gets your pulse up this much, you'd go on a killing spree on a few other cycling forums.

I can't be sure of the exact words but over on reddit/peloton someone said something along the lines of....if Sagan stabbed a baby everyone there would applaud and claim the baby had it coming, or somesuch. It was an accurate description. The Sagan love over here may be over the top biased, but it's tame in comparison to other places
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Re: Sagan Clean?

12 Apr 2018 18:58

just compare the people pissed off at Froome for the illegal feed on Alpe Huez 2013 vs the almost unnoticed Sagan´s illegal feed in the Roubaix last kms
pastronef
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Re:

12 Apr 2018 22:15

GuyIncognito wrote:LS mate, if the Sagan love here gets your pulse up this much, you'd go on a killing spree on a few other cycling forums.

I can't be sure of the exact words but over on reddit/peloton someone said something along the lines of....if Sagan stabbed a baby everyone there would applaud and claim the baby had it coming, or somesuch. It was an accurate description. The Sagan love over here may be over the top biased, but it's tame in comparison to other places

There's plenty of it in the proper media as well. He could inject himself with EPO in a press conference and half the journalists would rave about his needle technique.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 01:06

Libertine Seguros wrote:
Durden93 wrote:Thank you for saying this. LS, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts as you have a depth of knowledge rivalled by few others. Please don’t sink to the level of the trolls.

You mean like those many Sagan fans who set on all posts critical of their man like a Froome fan wandering unaware into the Clinic, until posters simply don't bother, and silence all negative opinions and who were attacking and mocking me in conversations about him that I hadn't even participated in? Maybe it's got better now and it's possible to hold a critical opinion without it being made to feel unwelcome (I've noticed the treatment of many posters whose positions were much less vitriolic than mine, before you ask), but since Sagan and the furore that surrounds him have become a huge dent in my enjoyment of the sport, I simply don't watch any race he's in and avoid the discussions at least on race days when emotions are riding high, to try to stop getting into arguments like I used to.

This thread is one of the few where a discourse which can be both supportive of, and critical of, Peter Sagan has been able to flourish, for better or for worse (and given some of the ridiculous stuff like the Gummi Bears, often for worse admittedly), and I thought self-deprecating humour was a good-natured way to steer the conversation back towards its intended subject without either personally attacking Pisti or Sagan himself. Unfortunately for me, it fell flat.


It's funny how you are trying to ignore all the positive that Sagan has done for the sport and still view him as some rapist who committed the biggest sin when he pinched the podium girl.

Actually, it is not funny, it is sad that some real cycling fans could be so stubborn.

... and I don't believe it one bit that you do not watch any race with Sagan because, like most of us around here, you love cycling more than you are willing to admit.
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13 Apr 2018 01:27

The Sagan fans here don't seem to be as bad (in not accept that he can make mistakes) as many on other pages are. Many here do seem to know he can and has made mistakes.

As for the pinching mistake, I wouldn't be surprised if that has become a visible example/reason why some of the races that have chosen to eliminate podium girls have done so.
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13 Apr 2018 11:58

Yet again, that old game, characterize it as if that incident is the only possible reason to dislike Sagan, because it makes it easier to dismiss criticism as unwarranted, despite the fact that I - and plenty of others - have enumerated various patterns of behaviour and attitude that I have explained would make me despise him regardless of that incident. And you post it directly underneath at least two posts which humorously mock the extent of the sycophancy among the fans and the media, which in and of itself is a further turn-off for me. You can see my various posts about people like Petter Northug as proof that the dislike of Sagan is not a one-off grudge but part of a pattern in who I like and dislike.

But of course, it can't be that, or it would actually justify not liking Sagan without the opportunity to dismiss the opinion as invalid. Therefore, we've got to characterize it differently, it's better to dismiss it just me not letting a sleeping dog lie of a one-off incident (that wasn't a one-off incident) several years ago. Gotta protect Brand Sagan. And if I don't correct the intentional misrepresentation, then it becomes accepted, and if I do, conversation becomes circular, everyone has their little session of telling me how wrong they think I am, and then we wonder why we go over this over and over again.

As for the great positives he's done for the sport, you mean like giving Oleg Tinkoff more of a platform and increasing the audience share among the MTV reality show viewing demographic? I'd say help me out here, but then conversation won't move on. Like I said, I came into this thread with a gentle joke with Pisti at my own expense, somebody took exception to one word, and now we're back to Sagan fans shutting down criticism and me rising to bait again.

I've corrected your deliberate mischaracterisation, but we know both of our positions are entrenched and further discussion will only get us bogged down. So let's call it quits before it gets to that point, capiche?
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 13:48

Durden93 wrote:
Gung Ho Gun wrote:
red_flanders wrote:Weird, I keep clicking on this thread to read about Sagan. Maybe next week.

This year he was arguably the worst he's been since Tinkoff criticised him after the spring of 2015. Let's wait until he wins the Amstel on sunday, then we'll have something new to talk about.


Have we been watching the same races? Won GW and Roubaix fairly convincely. He wasn’t quite his top form in still Flanders but still looked better than most aside from Terpstra.


Agreed. Winning Roubaix from 53k out and "worst he's been" seem fairly at odds.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 19:06

red_flanders wrote:
Durden93 wrote:
Gung Ho Gun wrote:
red_flanders wrote:Weird, I keep clicking on this thread to read about Sagan. Maybe next week.

This year he was arguably the worst he's been since Tinkoff criticised him after the spring of 2015. Let's wait until he wins the Amstel on sunday, then we'll have something new to talk about.


Have we been watching the same races? Won GW and Roubaix fairly convincely. He wasn’t quite his top form in still Flanders but still looked better than most aside from Terpstra.


Agreed. Winning Roubaix from 53k out and "worst he's been" seem fairly at odds.


It’s because of Sagan’s massive talent that we underrate outstanding accomplishments. Sagan is the LeBron of cycling, he has an impossible standard to live up to. Compare the criticism of Sagan’s string of 2nds to the praise a rider like Stuyven receives for multiple high placings in a spring campaign without wins and then try to tell me that Sagan is immune from criticism.

Now, back to the thread topic. Sagan’s form is strong throughout the classics, the TDF, and worlds on a consistent basis. It’s been this way for 7 seasons now. Sagan has never had a “normal” campaign. He’s never been completely off form. I think it’s fairly clear at this point that the uci doesn’t care. That should be the real criticism of Sagan, that his star is so bright that he can take doping to laughable levels and people won’t care.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 19:55

Jancouver wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:
Durden93 wrote:Thank you for saying this. LS, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts as you have a depth of knowledge rivalled by few others. Please don’t sink to the level of the trolls.

You mean like those many Sagan fans who set on all posts critical of their man like a Froome fan wandering unaware into the Clinic, until posters simply don't bother, and silence all negative opinions and who were attacking and mocking me in conversations about him that I hadn't even participated in? Maybe it's got better now and it's possible to hold a critical opinion without it being made to feel unwelcome (I've noticed the treatment of many posters whose positions were much less vitriolic than mine, before you ask), but since Sagan and the furore that surrounds him have become a huge dent in my enjoyment of the sport, I simply don't watch any race he's in and avoid the discussions at least on race days when emotions are riding high, to try to stop getting into arguments like I used to.

This thread is one of the few where a discourse which can be both supportive of, and critical of, Peter Sagan has been able to flourish, for better or for worse (and given some of the ridiculous stuff like the Gummi Bears, often for worse admittedly), and I thought self-deprecating humour was a good-natured way to steer the conversation back towards its intended subject without either personally attacking Pisti or Sagan himself. Unfortunately for me, it fell flat.


It's funny how you are trying to ignore all the positive that Sagan has done for the sport and still view him as some rapist who committed the biggest sin when he pinched the podium girl.

Actually, it is not funny, it is sad that some real cycling fans could be so stubborn.

... and I don't believe it one bit that you do not watch any race with Sagan because, like most of us around here, you love cycling more than you are willing to admit.

All the positive he has done for the sport ? He wins races .....what good has he done for the sport only get a few fans and make it a little more popular. It gets on my nerves when that line gets rolled out as if it matters, its an Omerta line aimed to deflect away from the realism of how he gets results.

What would be doing good for the sport is taking drugs out of it, not showboating when you win and flicking your mullet around !
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 20:01

Durden93 wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
Durden93 wrote:
Gung Ho Gun wrote:
red_flanders wrote:Weird, I keep clicking on this thread to read about Sagan. Maybe next week.

This year he was arguably the worst he's been since Tinkoff criticised him after the spring of 2015. Let's wait until he wins the Amstel on sunday, then we'll have something new to talk about.


Have we been watching the same races? Won GW and Roubaix fairly convincely. He wasn’t quite his top form in still Flanders but still looked better than most aside from Terpstra.


Agreed. Winning Roubaix from 53k out and "worst he's been" seem fairly at odds.


It’s because of Sagan’s massive talent that we underrate outstanding accomplishments. Sagan is the LeBron of cycling


The only way this hilariously misguided sentence could be forgiven is if you just started watching cycling a short time ago.

On what planet is Sagan in cycling at the level of LeBron in basketball? He's not Hinault or Merckx, mate.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 20:10

GuyIncognito wrote:
On what planet is Sagan in cycling at the level of LeBron in basketball? He's not Hinault or Merckx, mate.


Point taken, but neither is LeBron.

And I'll object to lumping Hinault in with Merckx. There is Merckx. Then much later there is everyone else.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 20:23

It’s because of Sagan’s massive talent that we underrate outstanding accomplishments. Sagan is the LeBron of cycling[/quote]

The only way this hilariously misguided sentence could be forgiven is if you just started watching cycling a short time ago.

On what planet is Sagan in cycling at the level of LeBron in basketball? He's not Hinault or Merckx, mate.[/quote]

They are both the best athletes in their sport at the moment. I'd say that's a fair comparison.
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13 Apr 2018 20:31

Personally I think Steph Curry is as good as a LeBron and Sagan is one of several cyclists whom would be the best depending on who you're talking to about who is currently racing.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 21:39

red_flanders wrote:
Durden93 wrote:
Gung Ho Gun wrote:
red_flanders wrote:Weird, I keep clicking on this thread to read about Sagan. Maybe next week.

This year he was arguably the worst he's been since Tinkoff criticised him after the spring of 2015. Let's wait until he wins the Amstel on sunday, then we'll have something new to talk about.


Have we been watching the same races? Won GW and Roubaix fairly convincely. He wasn’t quite his top form in still Flanders but still looked better than most aside from Terpstra.


Agreed. Winning Roubaix from 53k out and "worst he's been" seem fairly at odds.

It is probably the worst he's been since 2015, but he has been at his very best in the other two years, just unlucky at times. He's had much better luck this year, and in Roubaix and GW played it smart.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 21:44

Parker wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:LS mate, if the Sagan love here gets your pulse up this much, you'd go on a killing spree on a few other cycling forums.

I can't be sure of the exact words but over on reddit/peloton someone said something along the lines of....if Sagan stabbed a baby everyone there would applaud and claim the baby had it coming, or somesuch. It was an accurate description. The Sagan love over here may be over the top biased, but it's tame in comparison to other places

There's plenty of it in the proper media as well. He could inject himself with EPO in a press conference and half the journalists would rave about his needle technique.


You just described the Media's reaction to Valverde.

It's hilarious to see them jack off to him when they slam others like Ricco for doping.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 21:56

El Pistolero wrote:
Parker wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:LS mate, if the Sagan love here gets your pulse up this much, you'd go on a killing spree on a few other cycling forums.

I can't be sure of the exact words but over on reddit/peloton someone said something along the lines of....if Sagan stabbed a baby everyone there would applaud and claim the baby had it coming, or somesuch. It was an accurate description. The Sagan love over here may be over the top biased, but it's tame in comparison to other places

There's plenty of it in the proper media as well. He could inject himself with EPO in a press conference and half the journalists would rave about his needle technique.


You just described the Media's reaction to Valverde.

It's hilarious to see them jack off to him when they slam others like Ricco for doping.

You're reading/hearing different media to me then. (Quite likely. I only refer to English language media)
Parker
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 21:58

El Pistolero wrote:
Parker wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:LS mate, if the Sagan love here gets your pulse up this much, you'd go on a killing spree on a few other cycling forums.

I can't be sure of the exact words but over on reddit/peloton someone said something along the lines of....if Sagan stabbed a baby everyone there would applaud and claim the baby had it coming, or somesuch. It was an accurate description. The Sagan love over here may be over the top biased, but it's tame in comparison to other places

There's plenty of it in the proper media as well. He could inject himself with EPO in a press conference and half the journalists would rave about his needle technique.


You just described the Media's reaction to Valverde.

It's hilarious to see them jack off to him when they slam others like Ricco for doping.


In fairness to the media it’s difficult to criticize a rider for doping if they haven’t been caught. Criticizing a rider for doping without proof is a good way to get yourself sued.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 22:30

Parker wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:
Parker wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:LS mate, if the Sagan love here gets your pulse up this much, you'd go on a killing spree on a few other cycling forums.

I can't be sure of the exact words but over on reddit/peloton someone said something along the lines of....if Sagan stabbed a baby everyone there would applaud and claim the baby had it coming, or somesuch. It was an accurate description. The Sagan love over here may be over the top biased, but it's tame in comparison to other places

There's plenty of it in the proper media as well. He could inject himself with EPO in a press conference and half the journalists would rave about his needle technique.


You just described the Media's reaction to Valverde.

It's hilarious to see them jack off to him when they slam others like Ricco for doping.

You're reading/hearing different media to me then. (Quite likely. I only refer to English language media)


https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20180413_03461020

They're comparing strava records during training rides to actually racing a 260KM race lol. It boggles the mind how stupid this writer is.
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2018 22:43

El Pistolero wrote:
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20180413_03461020

They're comparing strava records during training rides to actually racing a 260KM race lol. It boggles the mind how stupid this writer is.

Yeah, we had that in the UK too. It's just a dumb story, similar to making a story about a tweet. 'Journalism' these days has to churn out stories for clicks. It's not really Valverde worship though,which I'm sure exists. But not to the extent of Sagan. Some of the media look at him like a Directioneer looks at Harry Styles (complete with stories about his new hairstyle)
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