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Sagan Clean?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Sagan Clean?

13 May 2018 01:02

User avatar TubularBills
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Re: Re:

15 May 2018 17:48

DirtyWorks wrote:
ctaylor wrote:On the bright side, at least he looks like an athletic human, rather than a Salbutamol powered stick man!


Right. I'd argue he's clean-ish given how consistently he rides. Unlike a Froome, he was a prodigious talent.

There is basically no way to compare so called talent. So argumenting with talent doesn't make a sense.
Kokoso
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Re: Re:

15 May 2018 17:59

DirtyWorks wrote:
ctaylor wrote:On the bright side, at least he looks like an athletic human, rather than a Salbutamol powered stick man!


Right. I'd argue he's clean-ish given how consistently he rides. Unlike a Froome, he was a prodigious talent.

It's a shame Pistolero is banned because now actually would be a good time to bring up Valverde.

Now, given your contrasting Sagan as somebody who has always had the level and consistently so vs. somebody like Froome, who is far less elegant on a bike, has deficiencies in a number of skills and so forth, I actually agree with you to some extent, but that doesn't necessarily make Sagan any cleaner per se, just that were the péloton to be completely paniagua as of tomorrow, we could expect Sagan to continue to be one of the top performers. After all, Valverde was one of the most ridiculously talented kids Spain ever produced. Not just at espoir level (which was actually his weakest time results-wise), not just at junior level, but back to cadets and back to when he was 11 years old when he went on his ridiculous winning streak that led to the "El Imbatido" nickname. Alejandro Valverde is just about the first guy you should be able to point to and say, "that guy always had the talent to be one of the best". But he's also a well-known doper and nobody in their right mind would say that his consistent excellence into his late 30s is a sign of cleanliness. Somewhere along the line he started doping and seemingly never stopped, but we can't pinpoint exactly where, because he kept on getting results.

Sagan, like Valverde, has consistently been a top results-getter from very early on. How clean that makes him is a total crapshoot. All we can say with any certainty is that on the Cipollini scale, he's more like Basso than di Luca.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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15 May 2018 19:55

Basso being that guy that even Aldo Sassi said didn't have the natural talent of others.
It's always a crapshoot with everyone, we can't know
User avatar GuyIncognito
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Re: Re:

15 May 2018 20:45

Libertine Seguros wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:
ctaylor wrote:On the bright side, at least he looks like an athletic human, rather than a Salbutamol powered stick man!


Right. I'd argue he's clean-ish given how consistently he rides. Unlike a Froome, he was a prodigious talent.

It's a shame Pistolero is banned because now actually would be a good time to bring up Valverde.

Now, given your contrasting Sagan as somebody who has always had the level and consistently so vs. somebody like Froome, who is far less elegant on a bike, has deficiencies in a number of skills and so forth, I actually agree with you to some extent, but that doesn't necessarily make Sagan any cleaner per se, just that were the péloton to be completely paniagua as of tomorrow, we could expect Sagan to continue to be one of the top performers. After all, Valverde was one of the most ridiculously talented kids Spain ever produced. Not just at espoir level (which was actually his weakest time results-wise), not just at junior level, but back to cadets and back to when he was 11 years old when he went on his ridiculous winning streak that led to the "El Imbatido" nickname. Alejandro Valverde is just about the first guy you should be able to point to and say, "that guy always had the talent to be one of the best". But he's also a well-known doper and nobody in their right mind would say that his consistent excellence into his late 30s is a sign of cleanliness. Somewhere along the line he started doping and seemingly never stopped, but we can't pinpoint exactly where, because he kept on getting results.

Sagan, like Valverde, has consistently been a top results-getter from very early on. How clean that makes him is a total crapshoot. All we can say with any certainty is that on the Cipollini scale, he's more like Basso than di Luca.



Wow, a Valverde/Sagan comparison that actually makes a lot of sense. Actually it is a good comparison. It's riders like both Valverde and Sagan that have always been good and continue to be good won't raise suspicion like a rider who was never good and then becomes great overnight.
User avatar Koronin
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Re:

15 May 2018 21:47

GuyIncognito wrote:Basso being that guy that even Aldo Sassi said didn't have the natural talent of others.
It's always a crapshoot with everyone, we can't know

Please tell me more. I got into cycling when he had just changed team to CSC, so I got to know him a lot around that period of time because the media in Denmark loved him. Don't really know that much before he joined up with Riis
User avatar Valv.Piti
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Re: Re:

16 May 2018 03:30

Libertine Seguros wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:
ctaylor wrote:On the bright side, at least he looks like an athletic human, rather than a Salbutamol powered stick man!


Right. I'd argue he's clean-ish given how consistently he rides. Unlike a Froome, he was a prodigious talent.

It's a shame Pistolero is banned because now actually would be a good time to bring up Valverde.

Now, given your contrasting Sagan as somebody who has always had the level and consistently so vs. somebody like Froome, who is far less elegant on a bike, has deficiencies in a number of skills and so forth, I actually agree with you to some extent, but that doesn't necessarily make Sagan any cleaner per se, just that were the péloton to be completely paniagua as of tomorrow, we could expect Sagan to continue to be one of the top performers. After all, Valverde was one of the most ridiculously talented kids Spain ever produced. Not just at espoir level (which was actually his weakest time results-wise), not just at junior level, but back to cadets and back to when he was 11 years old when he went on his ridiculous winning streak that led to the "El Imbatido" nickname. Alejandro Valverde is just about the first guy you should be able to point to and say, "that guy always had the talent to be one of the best". But he's also a well-known doper and nobody in their right mind would say that his consistent excellence into his late 30s is a sign of cleanliness. Somewhere along the line he started doping and seemingly never stopped, but we can't pinpoint exactly where, because he kept on getting results.

Sagan, like Valverde, has consistently been a top results-getter from very early on. How clean that makes him is a total crapshoot. All we can say with any certainty is that on the Cipollini scale, he's more like Basso than di Luca.


There are always exceptions.

Doping techniques vary. A rider will change techniques over time, and sometimes be forced to change them due to losing a doc or a new test showing up. This can cause serious performance fluctuations for athletes who are big dope users and big dope responders. What are the odds that Valverde has been on a top notch functioning doping programme every year for the last 15-20 years? There has to be a sublime talent level filling in the gaps in dope efficacy at times, in my opinion. (Not saying this to defend Valverde in some strange way.. he's just the example used for the topic)
spiritualride
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Re: Re:

18 May 2018 07:36

Valv.Piti wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:Basso being that guy that even Aldo Sassi said didn't have the natural talent of others.
It's always a crapshoot with everyone, we can't know

Please tell me more. I got into cycling when he had just changed team to CSC, so I got to know him a lot around that period of time because the media in Denmark loved him. Don't really know that much before he joined up with Riis


Haha, no talent whatsoever..Already at the Fassa Bortolo, before CSC, challenging/ripping top dogs like Vinokourov, Beloki, Jaja, Millar and taking white jersey at the TdF :cool:
memyselfandI
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