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LeMond III

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

25 Nov 2016 23:43

sniper wrote:thanks for confirming that you misrepresented Tienus.

and no, we don't find out exactly what he gave Lemond.
we find out exactly what he says he gave Lemond.
;)



Except I showed exactly how he misrepresented what was in the article. I really dont expect you to keep up though.
pmcg76
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25 Nov 2016 23:59

great, so Tienus didn't "claim" anything after all. You just made that up.
oh well.

Back on topic.

Noel de Jonckheere is an interesting figure. Somehow seems to have been able to keep a relatively low profile.
Previously managing 7-eleven, then Motorola, now BMC. All the time working together with Max Testa and Eric Heiden.
The De Jonckheere-Nijs-Lemond connection then also adds extra weight to Testa's claim that Lemond had used too much drugs: it becomes less and less likely that Testa was merely speculating.
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Re: Re:

26 Nov 2016 14:39

pmcg76 wrote:
sniper wrote:Tienus was making no claim.
You just made that up. Again.

If you get tired of people checking up on things and speculating about Lemond, well there are no rules against that, so you might be best advised to just ignore this thread.


The only thing I am tired of is posters selectively quoting and misrepresenting articles for their own purposes which there are rules for. I would like to know what these full artciles say but I shouldn't have to translate them. This is an English language forum so if links in other languages are posted, they should at least be translated in full or the relevant parts translated.

As for LeMond working with this doctor, when exactly did he work with LeMond. As I already posted, LeMond spent very little time in Belgium in 89.

I couldn't agree more, and I want to make sure that everyone is perfectly clear on this - There is no posting of languages other than English without a complete, accurate translation attached. I will be posting this as an announcement to make sure everyone understands that this has been a rule of the forum since the beginning. For some reason it has become a problem in recent months, it's time to nip it in the bud.

Just to reiterate, if a link does not have an accurate, complete translation (of pertinent parts) to go with it mods may delete the entire comment.

Cheers
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26 Nov 2016 17:22

I understand and respect the rule (and afaict Tienus lived up to it, so not sure why pcmg76 kept on complaining).

But the thing that really stands out here is that some posters chime in only to whine and moan (sorry, can't think of better words for it), instead of taking a *positive interest* in a (potentially salient) new piece of information...
They give the impression of being massively annoyed any time somebody speculates about Lemond and doping.
And so one is left wondering why these posters are still looking in here at all.
Maybe these posters should be subtly reminded that this is the Clinic.
Last time I checked there are other forums and subforums to discuss Lemond in a non-doping context.

Think about it: if new information (regardless of how speculative) is constantly 'welcomed' with such negativity, then what motivation is there left to look for new info - let alone translate it - in the first place?
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26 Nov 2016 18:35

Tirreno-Adriatico 1985.
Lemond was close to winning it, until he caught a fever and had to give up after the fourth stage.
To my surprise, Lemond says he took medicines from a doctor other than his own:

Lemond: "I felt really sick and couldn't sleep. I had 38 degrees fever. The doctor of the Italian basketball team, who stayed in the same hotel, gave me some medicins, because I absolutely wanted to ride the TT. I even trained behind the team's car. But the fever was elevated to 39 degrees and I couldn't breathe. "

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=greg+lemond+dokter&page=2&sortfield=date&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010593626%3Ampeg21%3Aa0271&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010593626%3Ampeg21%3Aa0271


Another possibly interesting detail is that Lemond's teammate Hinault had to abandon the race one day earlier (during the third stage), allegedly due to bronchitis.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirreno-Adriatico_1985
sniper
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26 Nov 2016 18:49

John asked a valid question to which I obviously responded. I would have also replied to pmcg76 if he asked a question.

I left my own summary / translation even after I found a copy paste-able version to show that I'm a poor translator. Its also very easy to accuse me of having an agenda after posting a summary like that.

There are multiple Dutch speakers in this forum and I expect to be corrected by them. Just like I questioned snipers conclusion yesterday. When I read in the XC skiing forum I sometimes have to put the same trust in the scandinaviens out here.
In my view the fact that there are posts here from different language news sources makes this forum attractive.
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26 Nov 2016 18:51

Noel de Jonckheere is an interesting figure. Somehow seems to have been able to keep a relatively low profile.
Previously managing 7-eleven, then Motorola, now BMC. All the time working together with Max Testa and Eric Heiden.
The De Jonckheere-Nijs-Lemond connection then also adds extra weight to Testa's claim that Lemond had used too much drugs: it becomes less and less likely that Testa was merely speculating.


You have forgotten National Development Team Director for USA cycling.
http://www.usacycling.org/qa-with-jim-miller-and-noel-dejonckheere-at-national-team-camp.htm
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Re:

26 Nov 2016 19:12

Tienus wrote:John asked a valid question to which I obviously responded. I would have also replied to pmcg76 if he asked a question.

I left my own summary / translation even after I found a copy paste-able version to show that I'm a poor translator. Its also very easy to accuse me of having an agenda after posting a summary like that.

There are multiple Dutch speakers in this forum and I expect to be corrected by them. Just like I questioned snipers conclusion yesterday. When I read in the XC skiing forum I sometimes have to put the same trust in the scandinaviens out here.
In my view the fact that there are posts here from different language news sources makes this forum attractive.
The main point is that the old newspaper articles are not able to be translated by auto translate from google chrome or any other translator without manually typing the text into the translator. That leaves the majority of the forum readers unable to read the posts in question. Since this is an english language forum, the responsibility lies with the poster to somehow manage to translate any pertinent information from the link. Otherwise, the comment in question is no better than an unsubstantiated rumor of which most people would call trolling.
Darryl Webster wrote:
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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 18:54

ScienceIsCool wrote:The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson


I guess we can now add him to the surprisingly long list of people who knew or rode with Lemond who have claimed he never touched and/or outright refused drugs, when they say this about exactly zero other riders, ever. I've now heard or read it from Hampsten, Mottet, Kochli, Borysewicz, Anderson and now Nijs. I am sure there are others, it's been 30+ years since all this was going on.

It certainly is an outlier.
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Re:

28 Nov 2016 19:07

sniper wrote:Noel de Jonckheere is an interesting figure. Somehow seems to have been able to keep a relatively low profile.
Previously managing 7-eleven, then Motorola, now BMC. All the time working together with Max Testa and Eric Heiden.


What qualifies one as a "figure"? Should you have just come out and said "Shadowy"? What constitutes a "low profile"? What evidence do you have that he is seeking a "low profile" as your post implies ("...has been able...")? What evidence do you have that he was working with Testa and Heiden "all the time"? If he was, what is that evidence of?

More to the point, how does this in any way speak to anything about Lemond?

The guy was an accomplished rider and ran USA cycling's U23 squad for like...I don't know, forever. Your post basically reads, "I've never heard of him until now and he worked with a bunch of people in cycling". Which could be said of probably 90% of the people working in the sport.
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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 19:37

red_flanders wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson


I guess we can now add him to the surprisingly long list of people who knew or rode with Lemond who have claimed he never touched and/or outright refused drugs, when they say this about exactly zero other riders, ever. I've now heard or read it from Hampsten, Mottet, Kochli, Borysewicz, Anderson and now Nijs. I am sure there are others, it's been 30+ years since all this was going on.

It certainly is an outlier.

Incredible. You buy into the narrative like a fan with a typewriter.

Why would they say it about anybody else ifi they aren't being asked about anybody else?

I've heard many more say it about Froome, Wiggins, and Lance than I've ever heard people say it about Lemond.
Must be true then.
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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 19:45

red_flanders wrote:...
What qualifies one as a "figure"? Should you have just come out and said "Shadowy"? What constitutes a "low profile"? What evidence do you have that he is seeking a "low profile" as your post implies ("...has been able...")? What evidence do you have that he was working with Testa and Heiden "all the time"? If he was, what is that evidence of?

More to the point, how does this in any way speak to anything about Lemond?

The guy was an accomplished rider and ran USA cycling's U23 squad for like...I don't know, forever. Your post basically reads, "I've never heard of him until now and he worked with a bunch of people in cycling". Which could be said of probably 90% of the people working in the sport.

Now you're just clogging by asking pointless questions.

He may or may not be relevant.
By not mentioning him, as you seem to prefer, we're not gonna find out are we.
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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 19:59

sniper wrote:
red_flanders wrote:...
What qualifies one as a "figure"? Should you have just come out and said "Shadowy"? What constitutes a "low profile"? What evidence do you have that he is seeking a "low profile" as your post implies ("...has been able...")? What evidence do you have that he was working with Testa and Heiden "all the time"? If he was, what is that evidence of?

More to the point, how does this in any way speak to anything about Lemond?

The guy was an accomplished rider and ran USA cycling's U23 squad for like...I don't know, forever. Your post basically reads, "I've never heard of him until now and he worked with a bunch of people in cycling". Which could be said of probably 90% of the people working in the sport.

Now you're just clogging by asking pointless questions.

He may or may not be relevant.
By not mentioning him, as you seem to prefer, we're not gonna find out are we.


I'm clogging? That's funny. Irony in the extreme.

If you have some actual questions about him, bring them up. Might be interesting. If you have some actual information, post it. Might be interesting.

Not surprised you declined to answer any of my questions. I was hoping there were some answers beyond just making noise.
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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 20:04

sniper wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson


I guess we can now add him to the surprisingly long list of people who knew or rode with Lemond who have claimed he never touched and/or outright refused drugs, when they say this about exactly zero other riders, ever. I've now heard or read it from Hampsten, Mottet, Kochli, Borysewicz, Anderson and now Nijs. I am sure there are others, it's been 30+ years since all this was going on.

It certainly is an outlier.

Incredible. You buy into the narrative like a fan with a typewriter.

Why would they say it about anybody else ifi they aren't being asked about anybody else?

I've heard many more say it about Froome, Wiggins, and Lance than I've ever heard people say it about Lemond.
Must be true then.


All of those people were asked about others and evaded the question as you would expect. In other cases they brought up their view that Lemond was clean completely unbidden, because they found it remarkable and worth noting. Where on earth do you get the idea that "they" weren't asked about anyone else. That's pointedly NOT what I'm referring to. This "narrative" is your modern interpretation of the media environment from the 80's. It's a completely skewed and inaccurate perspective.

The "narrative" was nothing like you imagine it to be, it rarely came up in european media and almost never came up in the US. There was no narrative. You're trying to apply what we know now to the discussion during that era. It's utterly mis-informed. You weren't around then and are attempting to reconstruct the era with your own slant 30 years later. It's just not accurate or relevant.
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28 Nov 2016 20:11

No WAY No HOW Lemond was not abusing the powers of meds.

After the TUE care bears. We really would sit here and debate it?
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28 Nov 2016 20:13

The narrative is that Bauer, Hampsten, and Lemond were clean, and all suffered when EPO kicked in.
Three clean anglophones beating those pesky Europeans on their home territory.
What are the odds.
In some sources that narrative is explicitly stated, I've posted examples in multiple threads. Don't ask me to do it again.
The narrative is so hypocrite it makes Sky look sympathetic.

The clean narrative was being build around them ever since the US had their 'little' doping scandals in 83 (PanAm Games) and 84 (LA Games), the latter being a kick in the teeth of sponsor 7-eleven. The US were the first to both realize the importance of, and really push, "clean" PR.
If you didn't see that narrative unfold, you missed something.
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Re:

28 Nov 2016 20:21

sniper wrote:The narrative is that Bauer, Hampsten, and Lemond were clean, and all suffered when EPO kicked in.
Three clean anglophones beating those pesky Europeans on their home territory.
What are the odds.
In some sources that narrative is explicitly stated, I've posted examples in multiple threads. Don't ask me to do it again.
The narrative is so hypocrite it makes Sky look sympathetic.


The clean narrative was being build around them ever since the US had their 'little' doping scandals in 83 (PanAm Games) and 84 (LA Games), the latter being a kick in the teeth of sponsor 7-eleven. The US were the first to both realize the importance of, and really push, "clean" PR.
If you didn't see that narrative unfold, you missed something.

That is the worlds greatest F -ed up Narrative. Has anyone learned anything?

PR CLEAN = propaganda. Which by the looks of it. We have some "buy in's " here .
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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 20:50

Glenn_Wilson wrote:
sniper wrote:The narrative is that Bauer, Hampsten, and Lemond were clean, and all suffered when EPO kicked in.
Three clean anglophones beating those pesky Europeans on their home territory.
What are the odds.
In some sources that narrative is explicitly stated, I've posted examples in multiple threads. Don't ask me to do it again.
The narrative is so hypocrite it makes Sky look sympathetic.


The clean narrative was being build around them ever since the US had their 'little' doping scandals in 83 (PanAm Games) and 84 (LA Games), the latter being a kick in the teeth of sponsor 7-eleven. The US were the first to both realize the importance of, and really push, "clean" PR.
If you didn't see that narrative unfold, you missed something.

That is the worlds greatest F -ed up Narrative. Has anyone learned anything?

PR CLEAN = propaganda. Which by the looks of it. We have some "buy in's " here .


Glenn!! Don't often see you enjoying the pleasures of the vulgar crowd!
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Re: Re:

28 Nov 2016 20:56

BullsFan22 wrote:
Glenn_Wilson wrote:
sniper wrote:The narrative is that Bauer, Hampsten, and Lemond were clean, and all suffered when EPO kicked in.
Three clean anglophones beating those pesky Europeans on their home territory.
What are the odds.
In some sources that narrative is explicitly stated, I've posted examples in multiple threads. Don't ask me to do it again.
The narrative is so hypocrite it makes Sky look sympathetic.


The clean narrative was being build around them ever since the US had their 'little' doping scandals in 83 (PanAm Games) and 84 (LA Games), the latter being a kick in the teeth of sponsor 7-eleven. The US were the first to both realize the importance of, and really push, "clean" PR.
If you didn't see that narrative unfold, you missed something.

That is the worlds greatest F -ed up Narrative. Has anyone learned anything?

PR CLEAN = propaganda. Which by the looks of it. We have some "buy in's " here .


Glenn!! Don't often see you enjoying the pleasures of the vulgar crowd!

I was his greatest fan back in the day. Now.... shades of GRAY man ROD.

But oh yeah this subject will bring me out.
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Re:

28 Nov 2016 20:59

sniper wrote:The narrative is that Bauer, Hampsten, and Lemond were clean, and all suffered when EPO kicked in.
Three clean anglophones beating those pesky Europeans on their home territory.
What are the odds.
In some sources that narrative is explicitly stated, I've posted examples in multiple threads. Don't ask me to do it again.
The narrative is so hypocrite it makes Sky look sympathetic.

The clean narrative was being build around them ever since the US had their 'little' doping scandals in 83 (PanAm Games) and 84 (LA Games), the latter being a kick in the teeth of sponsor 7-eleven. The US were the first to both realize the importance of, and really push, "clean" PR.
If you didn't see that narrative unfold, you missed something.


Clueless, absolutely clueless. There was no big narrative that LeMond/Bauer were clean. It was barely mentioned at all as doping was spoken about so little.

Who exactly was pushing this so-called narrative, the US media? Er no, it came from Europeans. The story started with Bernard Tapie I think, French and owner of La Vie Claire being asked if he knew any clean riders in pro cycling, his response was that LeMond, Bauer were the only riders he knew were clean, he didnt mention his own French superstar Hinault or his future French star Jean Francois Bernard. Just LeMond and Bauer. Which seems odd for a primarily French team with French superstars and a French boss. Its like the opposite of the Nationalistic bias we see now.

Likewise, Paul Kochli(a known anti-doping DS) backed LeMond and Bauer when asked if it was possible to win the Tour clean.

Quite why Tapie or Kochli would give a toss about what happened at the Olympics in 84 or about US/Canadian cycling or starting a propaganda war, I have no clue.

Hampsten never really had a clean reputation that I was aware off, that came much later when he spoke out himself after he had retired suggesting that EPO had curtailed his career. That is not to say he was regarder as a dirty rider. Back then there was no big thing made about doping in ProCycling, that was why it was unusual to hear about anyone being regarded as clean, as there was no automatic assumption among the public or some of the press that you were dirty like their currently is.

As Red_Flanders says, trying to filter 80s cycling through current attitudes is simply pointless.
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